CH Suggestions-merged

[QuorTek]

Hey I was wondering, well think I posted the idea somewhere else I forget where exactly, but I believe this belong to the suggestion area as it is.

I was wondering if CH would be able to control 3 CL70 pets again, as it was possible doing such in the pre-CU, it would make the profession more on pair with the other professions as it is if so, and no this is not one of those balancing threads, it is give back what once was in the pre-CU kind of suggestion lol.

Anyhow was one of the things that made CH great back in the day but got nerfed by the developers in SoE days, was before there was armor in the game too.

Argumentation needed, it was done before there was armor in the game, since it got a too popular class due to that as anything would faceroll people lol, but when armor got introduced they forgot to turn it back on in a figure of speech.

Updated the thread a little:
Some of it might have been mentioned before, but well am a CH for life and am sure that others am as well.

1. Be able to call/store pet in combat instantly with no 15 second wait - like you can switch weapons in combat, a master CH treat perhaps (would make sense)
2. Getting a /PetTaunt command, we had something similiar with beastmaster in the NGE, would be nice being able to put our pets into more use (would also make sense)
3. Be able to have 2-3 CL70 pets out at a time, or single pets doing way more damage at current point instead, at current point it is not like they do that much of a damage difference.
4. Have pet follow speed unnerfed... I have noticed especially since my Razor cat could always sort of keep up with the speeder when I started playing, but now they get far out of reach sort of.
5. Having ranged pet attacks fixed so it work again, think it is still broken.
6. Pets not getting totally black barred when getting diseased or that they will heal wounds moderately once black barred.
7. Pets being able to sit or lay down.
8. Formations getting to work, so not having 3 pets stacked upon each other once having 3 out.
9. A rating system in a figure of speech this more you use your pet this more it like you and maybe getting an additional bonus to what it can do.
10. For BE's being able to make CL70 pets, currently it seems very harsh or difficult to exceed 65.
11. Better source for pet food, or fishes you can catch drop much more meat once cutting them up.
12. A pet mode that does when you attack it attack as well, something one need to toggle, depends very much on the situation.
13.
14.
15.

Would try and come with some more on the way as it is, anyone else feel free to add to it as well if seeing anything fit.

[Cynar]

This was nerfed very early in Pre-CU. I always felt like CH alway got dealt a shitty hand. It's seemed like they went after pets so much they made them useless, then eliminate them at the beginning of NGE. I could see having 3 out, however CL would need to be evaluated.

[QuorTek]

Agreed onto that, I started on awakening as a rifleman/CH and am going to end my life here on Awakening being a Rifleman/CH, if unlocking jedi... hmm have to make a new rifleman/CH then to transfer stuff to if not going Jedi/CH lol.

The composite armor was added some time after though in which need to be taken into consideration as a give back to most other combat professions for being able to oppose enemy forces of all sorts, was talking with my BE friend some time ago and he mentioned that combat wise it would probably flatten better out if it was reversed to how it was supposed to be, and yet also give the BE more purpose other than making interesting weird components for food/clothing.

Anyhow a bunch of us CH's would probably be gratefull if we get moved back into the ranks of former glory, and possibly a more colorfull rainbow of weird combinations seen more often in combat as well.

[QuorTek]

There is some minor problems though with the Current setting though, as a rebel you can control 3 Faction CL70 rebel senior soldiers, that would simply cut through any imperial opposing forces with ease (any profession should be able to do such) as well as the imperials get the extreme AT-ST that likewise would cut through rebel forces with ease.

I don't get why a profession like CH should suffer not being able to have 3 CL70 trained pets out at the time as it is the fight style though, sorry to be a bother really and this is not all about easy mode crap either as it was in the pre-CU, it would render our CH class quite a bit more usefull as a second combat class.. just like eg, that a Master Swordman if being a bit clever would train up fencer as a second profession for the general defences and posture bonusses and more (the ones that stack to all).

It is just a heads up, like it or not, something needs to be done.... and to an extend it feels like I am suffering from late pre-CU/CU nerfs this way.

[Faceoff]

If I recall correctly the issue was that BEs could make lvl 1 (or very low level) rancors that kept the total level of pet CL below the CH cap. I don't know that they ever had the ability to have 3 CL 70 pets, but I started around patch 5 so I could be off a little bit.

[QuorTek]

I don't exactly recall any of that though lol, but all other professions sort of get easy mode compared to in a figure of speech, I guess the community was screaming nerf it or something lol, technically ranger + CH should be able to hold its own without any use of weapons... and for using rancors for combat, no ty lol... they are way to much in the way

[QuorTek]

Just out of interest... in the NGE we did get beast master as a sub for the long dead CH profession... but it is not asking for the beast master profession back at all though but more about how about make it viable for the BE's to make those pets for us or have a viable chance of doing such?

Fanged Tiglon, Mutant Rancor, Wompa and more as an option and a more colorful aspect of what CH's can use of pets, or make it like super hard to do so or the likes, and of course on success always turning out CL70 or as an extra drop when trying to create highend pets, lets say the //EDIT ->BE<- Edit// is trying to make CL60 razor cat/any cat alike beast... and suddenly after having made a bunch he or she gets lucky and get an extra 'drop' which in this case would be a fanged tiglon (in the NGE the Incubation tank exploded sort of lol).

Also general pet regen rate should be increased quite a bit after a long battle, but not to the extremes of course.

Edit
Made a very important correction, of course it would be a BE making the thing not a CH, me being silly

[Pharcyde]

i like the way this sounds

[Judgedread]

Ya CH with 3 lvl 70 bio'd rancors was just a little op pre armour! I think even if they had kept it that way with comp out they still would of been a nightmare to deal with. BE pets could get pretty ridiculous. If I remember correctly pvp wasn't the main reason for nerfing CH it was that they could easily solo eveything in game and it was throwing the pve game out of balance which affected pvp more than fighting them directly. I think the greatest thing that hurt CH in my opinion was Sony nerfing the armour rated pets.

[QuorTek]

Ya CH with 3 lvl 70 bio'd rancors was just a little op pre armour! I think even if they had kept it that way with comp out they still would of been a nightmare to deal with. BE pets could get pretty ridiculous. If I remember correctly pvp wasn't the main reason for nerfing CH it was that they could easily solo eveything in game and it was throwing the pve game out of balance which affected pvp more than fighting them directly. I think the greatest thing that hurt CH in my opinion was Sony nerfing the armour rated pets.

But this is supposed to be pre-CU reloaded, and a bunch of other professions can easely solo a bunch of the highend material anyway, mostly due to having actual armor, just look around on this fora in which tasks people got away with in general.

Or look at the highend rebel/imp forces you can get with faction points, had 3 Sr. Specforce heavy something taking on AT-STs and imperial bosses keep in mind each one of these pets wield CL70, likewise the heavy AT-ST that imperials can get but only one controlable at a time, but higher damage output/mitigation, it is kind of making a joke of the CH profession in general, mainly because any profession can be either imperial or rebel depending on which choice one want to be on in the civil war.

[Shoju]

I take it you don't recall the Pokemon effect of 2003? Refer to this quote from back in the day:

Yes, this is a nerf to you guys. Given the power that your pets have, I hope you understand why it is that we are obliged to do this. Currently, a novice creature handler can become more effective in combat than a maxxed out combat player, with far less effort. This is simply an effort to bring that in line. We cannot raise up all the combat profession to match you guys, so we're going to have to lower you instead.

I invite comment, but honestly don't see much of a way around taking this action.

-Raph Koster
Chief Creative Officer,
Sony Online Entertainment

Also, ex-Creative Director of SWG

When you refer to their "former glory" you're talking about them being ridiculously OP. There was no reason to be anything but a CH. Perhaps they went too far, but personally I don't want to see armies of rancors in PvP.

[Shoju]

Further, to address your factional pet argument, how difficult do you think it is to get an AT-ST versus getting a CL70 pet? Developing economy aside, it should be possible to buy both. What's the going rate for faction? What's the going rate for a CL70 pet? I suspect it will be much less expensive to get a CL70 pet and is thus balanced. It's all about effort vs reward.

Keep this SWG maxim in mind: Not all templates are created equal.

They're not supposed to be, no effort should be made to ensure it. The "my favorite template can't do everything" argument is what destroyed SWG.

[QuorTek]

Further, to address your factional pet argument, how difficult do you think it is to get an AT-ST versus getting a CL70 pet? Developing economy aside, it should be possible to buy both. What's the going rate for faction? What's the going rate for a CL70 pet? I suspect it will be much less expensive to get a CL70 pet and is thus balanced. It's all about effort vs reward.

Keep this SWG maxim in mind: Not all templates are created equal.

They're not supposed to be, no effort should be made to ensure it. The "my favorite template can't do everything" argument is what destroyed SWG.

Ok I can go unbuffed running around with 3 CL70 rebel pets out at any time and solo pretty much any cross faction content with them.... (and the damage they do hit at is actually quite high + being pretty much immune) sav one of them wrecking up to 6K damage on a target it knocked down for an instance.

What also destroyed SWG was leaving the so much broken and unfixed, for starters you should go and check out the stuff yourself, it might seem rude in your eyes to propose something like that, but either way something needs to be done... if refereing to actual bugs if refereing to that BE's could make CL1 that was CL70 making novice CH OP I agree to that as in pet should reflect the level you can train it to in a figure of speech and I do believe it is supposed to be a way to do stuff different ways and not just old school ranged and close range scenario... or look at it like... you have to actually get to the ranged person to get a hit in as a close range or as a closerange being able to mitigate damage enough to burn through your opponent or your force of pets picking the eyes out of the opponent if he or she does not either kill the master of the pet or the pets themself first.

What I am looking for or merely suggesting for is being able to control up to 3 CL70 pets (or making the current single topend pet system be much more viable) at master CH, maybe a little bit more damage or faster general attack speed, to make the game a little better and actually giving the class a little more purpose to be a choice or actual inate or trainable taunt command, maybe even resisting a little bit better on specific targets as well, nothing game breaking but making more of a purpose of being a CH, yes I know I am a CH/Rifleman in this game and I like both professions very much alongside with alot of other different different professions, as well as working as a unit whenever I can get to it alongside with guildies and such now and then.

Yes as mentioned I like the CH profession, and not going to ditch it in anyway one way or another, but to see problems you have to be in the role to get the actual idea about it as well, as for people openly taking advantage of exploits back in live is what ruin professions, but also developers not thinking an extra time once they add something extra in for an instance once armor became an option for players.

Not many of the people that play actually get to the forum either, and I am not 100% sure if I am accurate enough, but if you guys are interested we could unleash one of my actual CH pets at something and see what it is technically alike in a figure of speech.

[Shoju]

I'm not going to quote all of that, we're going to have to agree to disagree on what killed SWG. There were a ton of bugs in the launch version of SWG (and most every update after), people didn't start leaving in droves until they "balanced" the classes and gave everyone jedi.

I don't think you're rude for proposing I check it out myself, but you do seem to be assuming I've never played creature handler.

What you're specifically suggesting is making CH three times stronger than it is today. Are we playing "How ridiculously OP can we make rifleman?". They're already an extremely popular and powerful class. The only weakness they have is low defenses. At present, there are few options to mitigate that weakness in a solo context, and that is exactly how it should be. These changes are not made in a vacuum, it may seem to you like creature handlers need a bump. Taken on their own merits, that may be the case, but in the context of the larger game it will drive players to one "uber" template and that's something that should be avoided like the plague.

[QuorTek]

But how many is sticking with CH as a viable template option paired with something else.. yes my pet successfully knocked a NS elder down and krayt dragon (no idea out of how many attempts but looked fun, was grouped of course) and yes pets are tough once made by a well aware BE of course, but would optional not be able to have one to actually be able to take hits for you for a while or somewhat holding agro/stealing it back, both solo and grouped it would be a benefit for different hard content areas and the likes and when grouped for 'nightmare mode' areas in a figure of speech, the diversity is what make the game as well.

Have a look around on many of the most played professions as well, am not a fan of balancing classes out as which has ruined so many games, but am much more open for having a pool of more diversity and technical even more interesting gameplay (CHs are great at pulling single mobs out of crowds for an instance standing 100m away or to someone with a taunt and PH)

[Narnak]

CH's can still have 3 pets out they are just limited to CL70 combined (i.e. you can have 3 CL23 pets or 2 CL35). CH's could maybe use a very slight buff, but I don't think it is a very high priority over fixing bugs and such. The EMU code is not even at 1.0 yet and won't be for quite awhile most likely.

Edit: BE's can make CL35 rancors and I believe they are fairly tough as well...I'm not sure as a community we've fully explored the potential of the class...

[Anomaly]

I think perhaps a few people don't understand the game design process enough to realise just how significant
changes can be with regards to balance.
you cannot just buff and tweak with blinders on focused on your own game experience.
and as such we cant ask a small team like this to devote hundreds of hours to make changes to classes and test and 're tweak and retest to get it balanced.
Because that's what it takes in such a complex organic system like swg.

I like suggestions and ideas too but sometimes you have to understand that what your
suggesting is just a bit to much work RIGHT NOW at least.

That being said....ch got bent over hard.
I'd love to see it just a touch more viable. Right after all the more important issues are fixed that is! Lol

[Judgedread]

Using 3 faction pets is not the same as a CH using 3 bio'd cl70 pets. Faction pets cannot be used for pve they can only be used for faction warefare. They were able to be used once a upon a time in swg. People were wiping out high end mobs like krayts, Kliknicks and so on without an effort using 3 at-sts which was destroying the economy so they nerfed faction pets so you couldn't do that anymore.

[wkrec]

Absolutely support this!

Emulating something like the rare pet mutation system from the NGE would be great. It does nothing but add depth and variety to what a BE can do!

[ShadowOrdo]

I felt Beastmaster made creatures in SWG look and feel a bit silly. Sure some animals were cool like Wompa... but the Night Sister Mutant Rancor? It looked over done and silly when you start to think about it.