IMO what would fix PvP
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I had fun last nite and felt I contributed to a team. I think the rebels put up a great fight and because of their strategy , it was um, hairy for a few. They were fun and smart to play with /tip hat. The balance is always in a state of flux and will never be perfect. Thanks to the peeps who came with it, on both sides.
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I didn't see you offer any suggestions or solutions to help the situation other than set Jedi back to what it was in live. This is a problem on every server except Bas. The only reason it's not a problem there yet is because no one has a Jedi. I am not bashing your remarks because I have seen the struggle to try to balance things since launch. It's hard to have total balance when you have an alpha class.Sevvy wrote:I know this is an old thread, but I'm going to bump it. And I'm going to drop some knowledge.
First of all, the actual PvP on this server is in a really bad state. It's completely centered around Jedi and Bounty Hunters, and if you play anything else(other than maybe a CM or the occasional Rifleman with a 600+ damage Jawa)... good luck.
In an effort to make Jedi vs. Bounty Hunter more fun and engaging, it looks like both classes were buffed. Here is how I see them(I could be wrong about some of these):
Jedi
- Extra 24 skill points(which also gives jedi more force)
- Extra toughness/mitigation on robes
- Skill costs being broken in favor of the Jedi(such as Total Heal/Avoid Incap)
- Extra accuracy, which made them easily able to dispatch melee stackers
- ForceRun2 damage reduction reduced to 30%ish down from 95% damage reduction(not sure about FR3, haven't tested it)
Bounty Hunter
- Fast Blast/Spray Shot with a LLC
- Traps vs. Jedi
- Secret Lightsaber resists at Master Bounty Hunter
- Did I mention Fast Blast? It's insane
All these changes might be good for Jedi vs. BH, but they've destroyed PvP with consideration to all other combat toons. Jedi are all but invincible to anyone but a BH. Hell, they're even invincible against other Jedi. Granted, CMs can do some damage, and other classes can do things like spam Intimidate 1 & 2. But ultimately, PvP on this server is nothing but Jedi Warzzzzz.
Then add in factors like how neutered stackers are against Jedi, and the fact that almost NO ONE on the entire server has any DOT weapons worth mentioning, because loot is set to hardcore mode or whatever. So the stackers that used to help police the Jedi, and used to run Pikeman in their build just to DOT up Jedi, don't even exist on this server.
I'm not asking that the typical MMO knee jerk reaction nerfhammer be dropped on Jedi and BHs so that no one will ever want to play them again. But it would be nice if Jedi were about as strong as they were on live. And that we could move on from this server being almost nothing but Jedi vs. BH, and start an actual GCW.
When we launched I wanted to make Jedi so insanely hard to obtain and 100x harder to level. It was explained to me that people would complain and leave if Jedi was too insanely difficult to get. It was my hopes by year 2 that we would have around 10-12 Jedi, still knee deep in the leveling process. I would like to see honest solutions to help the situation other than the cry for nerf or default back to live.
Once the village is in Jedi will have to re-distribute those points. I can tell you through extensive testing that those 24 points really hurt once you've become use to using them how you see fit. I challenge you as a fellow player and someone who genuinely seems interested in helping make pvp better to come up with reasonable ideas to help fix the situation. It's really easy to tear something down, it's quite another to come up with solutions to build on.
Cynar
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Those 24 points dropping will be massive. A needed change.
The +25 toughness on Robes I think needs to stay OR the FRS robes need to be better. Unfortunately we only have the Knight robes now though so I can't really talk on that matter. The problem is that without that toughness and the state of mobs/fast blast, you will force Jedi to play even more defensive templates. Defensive/support Jedi are arguably more damaging to group PVP in my opinion. A ranked Powers could mow people down but couldn't win a fight solo.
Broken skill costs - Agreed. Total heal all is 2stronk. Haven't used AI since hitting MDef but I would tentatively agree based on my fights with MDef previously.
FR2 damage reduction to 30% would be amazing. Having previously been MEnh, I never used FR2 or 3, partly because of the damage reduction and partly because of the warping issues that still happens when trapped in F2/3. FR3 as far as I'm aware has the 95% damage reduction as intended.
PUB 8 on swgemu, has fixes for FB/Spray shot. I don't know if we will see those here but I really hope so. If those +Torso Shot make their way over here, MBH/Pistols will actually be viable and a much more fun fight. For both sides.
Traps - need to be changed. I've suggested multiple things and they've been brought up time and time again. Very few people enjoy playing against them and I talk to plenty of BH that don't enjoy having to use them. High level Jedi/BH there wasn't much diversity to begin with and now there is none. I think if they're gonna stay in the game, having regular combat states apply, would go a looooong way.
Also I really agree on the DOT weapons. Especially now that they work properly again.
The +25 toughness on Robes I think needs to stay OR the FRS robes need to be better. Unfortunately we only have the Knight robes now though so I can't really talk on that matter. The problem is that without that toughness and the state of mobs/fast blast, you will force Jedi to play even more defensive templates. Defensive/support Jedi are arguably more damaging to group PVP in my opinion. A ranked Powers could mow people down but couldn't win a fight solo.
Broken skill costs - Agreed. Total heal all is 2stronk. Haven't used AI since hitting MDef but I would tentatively agree based on my fights with MDef previously.
FR2 damage reduction to 30% would be amazing. Having previously been MEnh, I never used FR2 or 3, partly because of the damage reduction and partly because of the warping issues that still happens when trapped in F2/3. FR3 as far as I'm aware has the 95% damage reduction as intended.
PUB 8 on swgemu, has fixes for FB/Spray shot. I don't know if we will see those here but I really hope so. If those +Torso Shot make their way over here, MBH/Pistols will actually be viable and a much more fun fight. For both sides.
Traps - need to be changed. I've suggested multiple things and they've been brought up time and time again. Very few people enjoy playing against them and I talk to plenty of BH that don't enjoy having to use them. High level Jedi/BH there wasn't much diversity to begin with and now there is none. I think if they're gonna stay in the game, having regular combat states apply, would go a looooong way.
Also I really agree on the DOT weapons. Especially now that they work properly again.
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I offered a lot of solutions. Too bad you didn't see it that way.Cynar wrote:I didn't see you offer any suggestions or solutions to help the situation other than set Jedi back to what it was in live. This is a problem on every server except Bas. The only reason it's not a problem there yet is because no one has a Jedi. I am not bashing your remarks because I have seen the struggle to try to balance things since launch. It's hard to have total balance when you have an alpha class.Sevvy wrote:I know this is an old thread, but I'm going to bump it. And I'm going to drop some knowledge.
First of all, the actual PvP on this server is in a really bad state. It's completely centered around Jedi and Bounty Hunters, and if you play anything else(other than maybe a CM or the occasional Rifleman with a 600+ damage Jawa)... good luck.
In an effort to make Jedi vs. Bounty Hunter more fun and engaging, it looks like both classes were buffed. Here is how I see them(I could be wrong about some of these):
Jedi
- Extra 24 skill points(which also gives jedi more force)
- Extra toughness/mitigation on robes
- Skill costs being broken in favor of the Jedi(such as Total Heal/Avoid Incap)
- Extra accuracy, which made them easily able to dispatch melee stackers
- ForceRun2 damage reduction reduced to 30%ish down from 95% damage reduction(not sure about FR3, haven't tested it)
Bounty Hunter
- Fast Blast/Spray Shot with a LLC
- Traps vs. Jedi
- Secret Lightsaber resists at Master Bounty Hunter
- Did I mention Fast Blast? It's insane
All these changes might be good for Jedi vs. BH, but they've destroyed PvP with consideration to all other combat toons. Jedi are all but invincible to anyone but a BH. Hell, they're even invincible against other Jedi. Granted, CMs can do some damage, and other classes can do things like spam Intimidate 1 & 2. But ultimately, PvP on this server is nothing but Jedi Warzzzzz.
Then add in factors like how neutered stackers are against Jedi, and the fact that almost NO ONE on the entire server has any DOT weapons worth mentioning, because loot is set to hardcore mode or whatever. So the stackers that used to help police the Jedi, and used to run Pikeman in their build just to DOT up Jedi, don't even exist on this server.
I'm not asking that the typical MMO knee jerk reaction nerfhammer be dropped on Jedi and BHs so that no one will ever want to play them again. But it would be nice if Jedi were about as strong as they were on live. And that we could move on from this server being almost nothing but Jedi vs. BH, and start an actual GCW.
When we launched I wanted to make Jedi so insanely hard to obtain and 100x harder to level. It was explained to me that people would complain and leave if Jedi was too insanely difficult to get. It was my hopes by year 2 that we would have around 10-12 Jedi, still knee deep in the leveling process. I would like to see honest solutions to help the situation other than the cry for nerf or default back to live.
Once the village is in Jedi will have to re-distribute those points. I can tell you through extensive testing that those 24 points really hurt once you've become use to using them how you see fit. I challenge you as a fellow player and someone who genuinely seems interested in helping make pvp better to come up with reasonable ideas to help fix the situation. It's really easy to tear something down, it's quite another to come up with solutions to build on.
Go down those lists and reevaluate and/or fix each one of those bulletpoints. Start putting some DOT weapons ingame. At least some pikes from Nightsisters. Granted, it wasn't a perfect system back then either, because there were a few DOT weapons that were pretty ridiculous, but a stacker should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a jedi for a bit. 2 stackers should start causing a Jedi to consider leaving.
The biggest thing to me, is that combat needs to stop being balanced around Jedi and Bounty Hunters. And even if it continues that way, then where is the love for the rest of the other 10+ combat classes? Why buff an already alpha class and BHs to be an alpha class, but then give nothing to the rest of the classes?
I'm not saying that what was done was only negative. Jedi vs. BH can be fun. And I see what you were trying to do. But the unintended consequences of that, are that the rest of the combat classes are terrible compared to Jedi.
If you read my posts as me just trying to "tear something down" then so be it. Whatever. I'll gladly work with the SWG Awakening team to come up with more ideas on how to balance things out for PvP. You guys let me know a time and a place, and I'll be there to put the work in to help.
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I never said you didn't have some valid points Sevvy, but most of the suggestions are nerfs, not improvements. Bullet point after bullet point is requiring the dev team to diminish the current system. What you could do is recommend ways to improve all of other combat classes to have some more oomph to be competitive. You also need not be so easily offended if you are going to offer suggestions. The worse thing one can become is sore because not everyone sees eye-to-eye with you. I almost never agree with anyone wanting to diminish items in lieu of improving others.
DoT weapons are in game, you just have to loot them. Awakening isn't going to have tons of people running around with super dot weapons just because pvp is down. The mission statement from the beginning is that things would be more challenging here. You will have to figure out a way to combat the Alpha class and dot weapons can happen, just gotta really work for them. As for the people running around in Jedi packs you are about to make things worse on yourself. You may want to curb that activity or risk seeing some mean ass AI intervention down the road. Jedi are supposed to be rare and hidden in this period and some changes may come to make you want to stay hidden.
My advice is play smart.
DoT weapons are in game, you just have to loot them. Awakening isn't going to have tons of people running around with super dot weapons just because pvp is down. The mission statement from the beginning is that things would be more challenging here. You will have to figure out a way to combat the Alpha class and dot weapons can happen, just gotta really work for them. As for the people running around in Jedi packs you are about to make things worse on yourself. You may want to curb that activity or risk seeing some mean ass AI intervention down the road. Jedi are supposed to be rare and hidden in this period and some changes may come to make you want to stay hidden.
My advice is play smart.
Cynar
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Please don't read into what Cynar wrote as negative or dismissive. (He's retired anyway and out of touch! ;D ) Staff has been engaged in a conversation about some of these topics for a while now. We have some new staff members as well that I'd like to engage in the discussion. With that, these threads are important to get player input.
We are aware of some combat imbalances created by some of the points brought up in this thread. We are working on them, but please understand that we can't give 8-12 hours a day to development and testing. (As an aside, If anyone out there is looking to join the team with some coding experience, please apply using the outlined processes. We're always looking for free labor!) We are working on a large patch that covers some of the above points--not all--but certainly gives love outside of Jedi or BH. As I previously posted, there are a few hidden "gems" that aren't working well with Awakening code and we're currently working on those.
Please don't assume everything from Pub8 on Basilisk will be incorporated here. We will incorporate those things that we feel are within the Awakening mission/goals.
We know there is room to improve and we are striving for improvement. Still, PvP needs to come from players, and it still can be a ton of fun in an admittedly imperfect system.
We are aware of some combat imbalances created by some of the points brought up in this thread. We are working on them, but please understand that we can't give 8-12 hours a day to development and testing. (As an aside, If anyone out there is looking to join the team with some coding experience, please apply using the outlined processes. We're always looking for free labor!) We are working on a large patch that covers some of the above points--not all--but certainly gives love outside of Jedi or BH. As I previously posted, there are a few hidden "gems" that aren't working well with Awakening code and we're currently working on those.
Please don't assume everything from Pub8 on Basilisk will be incorporated here. We will incorporate those things that we feel are within the Awakening mission/goals.
We know there is room to improve and we are striving for improvement. Still, PvP needs to come from players, and it still can be a ton of fun in an admittedly imperfect system.
Xiphos
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Please, I have always been out of touch, even when I wasn't retiredXiphos wrote:Please don't read into what Cynar wrote as negative or dismissive. (He's retired anyway and out of touch! ;D )

Cynar
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We poke fun, but don't believe this for a minute folks!Cynar wrote:Please, I have always been out of touch, even when I wasn't retired.
Xiphos
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Nerfs can't be improvements? This is news to me.Cynar wrote:but most of the suggestions are nerfs, not improvements.
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So when the dev team overbuffed an already alpha class, rather than realizing that some of those changes were over the top, it's best to attempt to buff ALL the other classes in further attempt to balance them with Jedi? What's easier to do, nerf 1 or 2 classes that got overbuffed, or buffing 10+ other classes in order to try to bring them inline with what Jedi and BHs are now?Cynar wrote:I never said you didn't have some valid points Sevvy, but most of the suggestions are nerfs, not improvements. Bullet point after bullet point is requiring the dev team to diminish the current system. What you could do is recommend ways to improve all of other combat classes to have some more oomph to be competitive.
I'm sorry that I'm suggesting to diminish the current system. But that's what you do to broken systems. The system IS broken. Do you acknowledge that?
I'm not sore. You're just... you.Cynar wrote:You also need not be so easily offended if you are going to offer suggestions. The worse thing one can become is sore because not everyone sees eye-to-eye with you. I almost never agree with anyone wanting to diminish items in lieu of improving others.
Lol. Do you play this game? How are those 1% potency DOT weapons working out for everyone? <Kk> has PvE'd as much, if not more than anyone on this server. So I don't want to hear about how those DOT weapons are just waiting to be looted.Cynar wrote:DoT weapons are in game, you just have to loot them.
I wasn't advocating "super dot weapons". But again, some stackers holding DOT pikes that could put some fear into Jedi would be nice. A couple of months ago, a change was put into place so that Jedi could easily kill stackers. Remember that? Well, it borked PvP even more. Because in its current state, the only thing that puts ANY fear into a Jedi, is a BH. Literally nothing else does. Does that sound balanced to you?Cynar wrote:Awakening isn't going to have tons of people running around with super dot weapons just because pvp is down. The mission statement from the beginning is that things would be more challenging here. You will have to figure out a way to combat the Alpha class and dot weapons can happen, just gotta really work for them.
AI intervention sounds totally lame. Seriously. Please tell me that's not really going to be a thing.Cynar wrote:As for the people running around in Jedi packs you are about to make things worse on yourself. You may want to curb that activity or risk seeing some mean ass AI intervention down the road. Jedi are supposed to be rare and hidden in this period and some changes may come to make you want to stay hidden.
My advice is play smart.
Regardless of what you think about my ideas or my tone, I want what's best for the server. That being... balance.
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Sounds like you're exceptionally sore Sevvy. I believe what Cynar is espousing is that nerfs are inherently not fun and he'd rather improve other classes to make them more fun, more variable, more viable, etc. This is opposed to making the 2 classes that people swarm towards currently less fun. It's a difference of "I'll do X because Y is bad now" and "I guess I'll do X now because it's awesome now." It's a design issue that comes up in basically every moba, mmo, rts, etc. While nerfing is easier and the more prevalent choice, in my experience it's very rarely the more successful choice for the overall health of the game.
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While we value (and need) input, let's not mistake that for open season on staff (past or present). Making this personal only devalues the conversation. Let's get this back in line please.
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Sure, nerfing things is something everyone would rather not see as opposed to improvements elsewhere, but let's take a look at the last decade or so of MMO gaming. What seems to be the killer of most of these games? Lack of end game content, and PvP imbalance. Since this game is more of a sandbox than anything else, it could be argued that the PvP is a big part of the end game content. Sevvy is correct in saying that the only class a Jedi fears is a BH. We had a guy stop playing his stacker when he ended up hitting a Jedi with a beastly stun baton like it was a foam toy. I will say that the weapon would probably do decent damage to a non Jedi, but the odds of running into a group that doesn't have 2-3 Jedi in them lately has not been very high. I don't want people to stop playing the classes that everyone swarms to because the end up being less fun, I want to see others swarm to other classes because they are more fun.Royan wrote:Sounds like you're exceptionally sore Sevvy. I believe what Cynar is espousing is that nerfs are inherently not fun and he'd rather improve other classes to make them more fun, more variable, more viable, etc. This is opposed to making the 2 classes that people swarm towards currently less fun. It's a difference of "I'll do X because Y is bad now" and "I guess I'll do X now because it's awesome now." It's a design issue that comes up in basically every moba, mmo, rts, etc. While nerfing is easier and the more prevalent choice, in my experience it's very rarely the more successful choice for the overall health of the game.
I find it great that the staff are working on some of these issues and I look forward to seeing them.
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Nerfing something that was overbuffed is more reasonable than buffing 10+ other combat professions. It really is that simple.Royan wrote:Sounds like you're exceptionally sore Sevvy. I believe what Cynar is espousing is that nerfs are inherently not fun and he'd rather improve other classes to make them more fun, more variable, more viable, etc. This is opposed to making the 2 classes that people swarm towards currently less fun. It's a difference of "I'll do X because Y is bad now" and "I guess I'll do X now because it's awesome now." It's a design issue that comes up in basically every moba, mmo, rts, etc. While nerfing is easier and the more prevalent choice, in my experience it's very rarely the more successful choice for the overall health of the game.
As far as being "sore" or "making this personal". I'm doing neither of those things. Cynar has always been one of the most abrasive people on these forums. So when he tries to call me out, I'm going to respond. If it would make everyone feel better, I'll just ignore his posts from now on.
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No, nerfs are not improvements. You are softening the football for people who can't handle catching regular football because it might hurt a little bit. You balance by elevating the other combat professions to be more competitive with Jedi and BH. Let's not ruin A & B's good time just because C-Z doesn't like it. You help find ways to make C-Z more fun and useful.clownsu wrote:Nerfs can't be improvements? This is news to me.Cynar wrote:but most of the suggestions are nerfs, not improvements.
And to answer your question Sevvy I have played on this server and others. I have made comparisons, suggestions to their staffs for improvements. I have also continued to help the dev staff here work on and talk about improvements. This is all based on what I have seen here and on competitor servers. With the size of the staff on most servers they just don't have the time to do completed redesigns of the combat systems overnight. Some take pain staking months for minor improvements.
You have to maintain a playable environment for your playerbase. implementing some of the most simple patches can take weeks and then moving it to live can blow up in your face when it hits a large, real working database. So everything this team has done in recent months was for stability reasons. So they aren't going to go nuts ripping professions apart just to make people happy in the short term and totally fucking a system that can indeed use some changes and improvements.
I will certainly admit changes do indeed need to be made. What they don't need to be is changed hastily sacrificing stability or further borking gameplay. Xiphos and I talked about this last night, I've talked to devs at other servers and they all will admit there is almost no winning with Jedi. Alpha or not it's been a nightmare since conception. To me it's earlier builds were better in some ways and they almost need to have their own pvp systems, one which co-exists solely with BH and other FRS Jedi.
That's not saying that regular combat professions should never be able to attack them, but then again we are talking about a complete redesign of a class that already gets too much attention and would be complex as hell. The rules that already intertwine the BH/Jedi relation are complex enough. So yes I do agree with you on many things. What I don't agree on is taking away from A & B to satisfy the rest of the letters. Let's make slow, steady and smart improvements to everyone else.
If you want to discuss this more I will be in TS to tonight and maybe a dev or two can make an appearance. This isn't going to be resolved overnight or next month. Changes take time and patient players willing to wait and work with the team to make the environment better for all.
Cynar
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The problem here, is that you're not talking about a regular football. You're talking about a football that already has a lightsaber. Then the dev team here took that football with a lightsaber, and gave it some extra armor and mitigation, extra skill points, extra accuracy to deal with stackers, and made said stackers overall less effective, etc.Cynar wrote:No, nerfs are not improvements. You are softening the football for people who can't handle catching regular football because it might hurt a little bit. You balance by elevating the other combat professions to be more competitive with Jedi and BH. Let's not ruin A & B's good time just because C-Z doesn't like it. You help find ways to make C-Z more fun and useful.clownsu wrote:Nerfs can't be improvements? This is news to me.Cynar wrote:but most of the suggestions are nerfs, not improvements.
So yes, a nerf is in order. Nerfs can be improvements. The problem with a lot of nerfs, is that dev teams crack under pressure and overnerf classes into the ground. That's the problem with nerfs. Implemented correctly on this server, it could make PvP much more enjoyable for MOST of the playerbase.
Leader of Kanjiklub<Kk>
Visit my CA vendor in Nar Kanji, East of Theed @ -3022 3794 or contact me ingame on Sev, Sevvy, or Respect
http://imgur.com/7OHEzZy
Visit my CA vendor in Nar Kanji, East of Theed @ -3022 3794 or contact me ingame on Sev, Sevvy, or Respect
http://imgur.com/7OHEzZy
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- RETIRED*
- Posts: 2809
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:40 am
Alpha profession > regular professions. I have extended an offer for you and the Awakening team to discuss this. Its up to you to accept it. Other members of Kanji Klub and other players serious about discussing the pvp issue may attend as well. It's not an invitation for social hour or people to insult one another. It's a pasionate discussion for sure and people are willing to listen.
A nerf is not going to happen.
A nerf is not going to happen.
Cynar
Retired Founder of SWG Awakening
My posts do not reflect the current views or opinions of the Awakening staff team. Please do not mistake them for that of the Awakening staff.
Rules & Policies | ToS | Play Now | Awakening Discord | Events
Retired Founder of SWG Awakening
My posts do not reflect the current views or opinions of the Awakening staff team. Please do not mistake them for that of the Awakening staff.
Rules & Policies | ToS | Play Now | Awakening Discord | Events
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- Full Member
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:27 am
- Location: Oregon
Give me a time and I'll be there.Cynar wrote:Alpha profession > regular professions. I have extended an offer for you and the Awakening team to discuss this. Its up to you to accept it. Other members of Kanji Klub and other players serious about discussing the pvp issue may attend as well. It's not an invitation for social hour or people to insult one another. It's a pasionate discussion for sure and people are willing to listen.
A nerf is not going to happen.
I had a Jedi on live that I was active in the GCW with. I have a Jedi here(albeit brand new). I know a lot about it. I understand that alpha professions are going to be better than regular professions. I think I understand all of this better than most. I've been playing MMOs for almost 20 years.
But PvP on Awakening has been the same since I started on this server... "Throw Jedi at it until we can't lose." That really sums up Awakening PvP. It was true when CoA had the most Jedi, and most of the current Imperials hid while <Kk> fought them. It's true now that there is a huge imbalance of Imperial Jedi over Rebel Jedi.
Just sayin'.
Leader of Kanjiklub<Kk>
Visit my CA vendor in Nar Kanji, East of Theed @ -3022 3794 or contact me ingame on Sev, Sevvy, or Respect
http://imgur.com/7OHEzZy
Visit my CA vendor in Nar Kanji, East of Theed @ -3022 3794 or contact me ingame on Sev, Sevvy, or Respect
http://imgur.com/7OHEzZy
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- Sr. Member
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:09 am
I'm trying to go Rebel on Danny 

Bobaphat/Dannyrand
Drop off:
Corellia: 885 -5169 -- Just outside of Coronet
Drop off:
Corellia: 885 -5169 -- Just outside of Coronet