IMO what would fix PvP

[Xiphos]

As I stated earlier, I admit there's room for improvement in mechanics. But PvP is a two way street and requires active participants. That's up to players. Want in the party? Guild up and go at it. Grow your team and compliment it with appropriate classes. I don't buy that PvP can't be or isn't fun right now. Adapt to the environment and kill each other.

Will we still seek improvement? Of course. But those waiting on us to tune mechanics are missing the larger picture. Some of you are out there. Encourage others.

[RemusStorm]

Right now as i see it, jedi has such a low skill cap.

Yes, an Alpha class should be strong, but it should also take skill and knowledge of the game to be great at it. On Awakening you can just get MLS/Mhealer/xxx and all you have to do is have total heal self/other on your bar and use it when you are low, no need to manage force or be worried, I remember when Total heal was an insane force cost, and it was only used as a last ditch effort to stay alive, much like AI. But on Awakening it's used without worry. Then add the ridiculous bonus damage reduction (40-50%????) on robes, you don't even need Force Armour 2 to live, couple that with 24 extra skill points.... and it's just ridiculous.

Sure BH vs Jedi is a big part of awakening, but the reason so many people "flock" to it, is because its the only way to combat jedi. So you force people into doing something, but then say that they do it on their own accord, i don't get it. BH vs Jedi is not GCW, it is it's own mini game, MBH Sucks in world PVP, but is great against jedi (if you have their missions to use traps), jedi is great vs everything else, but struggles vs MBH. The other combat professions can be fun when Vsing eachother, but then you introduce a few jedi into the GCW and it just ruins the fun.


If GCW was fun, and playing other professions was fun, then i guarantee you that more people would play professions other than BH and Jedi. I've seen a TKM Stacker, who worked for hours and spent millions i'm sure, on min/maxing his gear, SEAs, Armour etc etc duel a jedi(MLS/Mheals), he had a exceptionally high damage VK (i think it was close to 450max). He was hitting the jedi for 100 damage with hit3, maybe 200-250 if the jedi was KD. Imagine how disheartening that would be, 100 damage a hit, while the jedi just uses his 1h saber to head hit you with his improved accuracy. The jedi just laughed. No wonder no one wants to play other professions in PVP.

At an extremely basic level, the way i saw SWG PvP Pre-cu, Jedi kill ranged, Melee killed/tanked Jedi and Ranged killed Melee, yes PvP was flawed, but the formula kinda worked, it was enjoayable to me.

Sorry to rant, but hopefully you get the basics of what i'm trying to say.

[Royan]

There's an argument to be made about Jedi vs normal prof power dynamic, but I don't know where you're getting this idea that mechanically Jedi is so much easier than being a stacker. Stackers are obnoxiously simple to play by design - stackers are made to be extremely low maintenance in PvP through their templates. Beyond that, SWG is not a mechanically difficult game. It's perhaps one of the easiest MMOs to PvP and is almost entirely dependent on spec and gear past a base competency. On that point, guess what - Jedi are much more expensive to gear out than your typical stacker due to SEA slot restriction and what seems like lowered tuning chances, let alone the time investment comparison of a TKM "who worked for hours" vs unlocking and grinding a Jedi template.

[SnowLily]

I certainly have pvp'ed on this server a bit and was on the base run the other day and was in the post-base party. . . I could have taken my jedi knight both times. Instead, I chose a melee stacker the first time and a riflewoman the second time.

I felt like part of a team, we work well together!

Why did I chose something besides my jedi? Because I had much fun playing my other toons, and they both did well against the rebels. I don't have an uber dot weapon, but can certainly hold my own vs a jedi on either toon! PvP is not ALL about jedi and bounty hunters, other templates are certainly viable, you just have to know how to play it. If you are outmatched in strength or numbers, you will lose, the opposite is also true. I have lost in pvp, and I have also won with not JUST jedi, but with many other templates. It is unbalanced, yes, but that's part of the fun, it takes tactics.

One of my favorite pvp events on this server was with my riflewoman:) It was when CoA was dominating pvp. Rebels outnumbered imperials 2:1. There was an event (loads of jedi at it Idah and friends). Well there was a common river where everyone had to cross to get to the stairs. Me and my group (of myself and Merrie) stood at the bank and popped people off as they swam to the stairs to take the base. I must have killed at least 30 rebels that day lol (well a few were more than once so counted more than 1x). When they tried to swarm, we tactically retreated, then held the river as best we could. It ended in a stalemate, which for the imperials at the time was a decisive victory as we hadn't the manpower to destroy their base, but they had more than enough to destroy ours. It was tactics that won the day, not strength! Even with all their jedi!

My stacker has tanked a jedi before. It took all I got to do it, but it was a very even fight. Some jedi kill my stacker with ease, but another toon does ok with it, but not all jedi are created equal, some are easy for template A (non-jedi) but hard for B (non-jedi); and some are easy for template B and hard for template A. In group pvp you need templates that complement each other and people that work well together.

SnowLily <BEAST>

[RemusStorm]

There's an argument to be made about Jedi vs normal prof power dynamic, but I don't know where you're getting this idea that mechanically Jedi is so much easier than being a stacker. Stackers are obnoxiously simple to play by design - stackers are made to be extremely low maintenance in PvP through their templates. Beyond that, SWG is not a mechanically difficult game. It's perhaps one of the easiest MMOs to PvP and is almost entirely dependent on spec and gear past a base competency. On that point, guess what - Jedi are much more expensive to gear out than your typical stacker due to SEA slot restriction and what seems like lowered tuning chances, let alone the time investment comparison of a TKM "who worked for hours" vs unlocking and grinding a Jedi template.

Stackers cant heal mind for 1500/total heal/Cure poison or disease, Stackers have vulnerability, Combat Medics. Stackers do 0 damage to Jedi.

Jedi in GCW/World PvP, dont have a vulnerability.

What i'm saying is, jedi dont need to scrutinise on force management like the old days, they dont have to worry about Fire wep dots or being hit for a lot by crazy melee weapons.

I am sure Jedi is time consuming and hard to grind, but in my opinion it doesn't mean they should be un-beatable and easy to play/win. Don't you guys want high skill caps etc to make things interesting and challenging???

[davej30]

Jedi...
Has no place in the gcw imo.
Your always going to get whoever has the most jedi wins.So its either no jedi in the gcw or a lot of there counter class present.
I recall the gcw was very intensive on live before the hologrind,sure it was a lot of riflemen/cm,but it was active.

[Royan]

Lemme record a video for you Remus - you might find it interesting in your world of Jedi not needing to manage force.

[RemusStorm]

Lemme record a video for you Remus - you might find it interesting in your world of Jedi not needing to manage force.

Then go watch a video of a live Jedi and force cost....

[Royan]

Apologies for the delay - SWG was refusing to be recorded and then I needed to redo the duel because I realized I had accidentally recorded something someone would've preferred being private after uploading/processing.

So, just a simple test: I set up my stacker vs my jedi. Stacker was using a macro that basically consisted of a simple dizzy/kd check, intim 1/2, and head hits. He was not using a PSG and his weapon is fairly good but nothing exceptional. Jedi only used dervish 2 for the sake of simplicity as a baseline force drain rate. He was using a LS with an average FC reduction of around -7 per pearl as a decent lightsaber but not great (mainly because I didn't want to condition burn some of my better pearls, but it also is a reasonable approximation for Jedi without the money/luck to get a lot of -9's). I wasn't necessarily trying to kill the stacker, just showing expected FC vs a stacker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZCL438fqNg

As you can see, it's not a simple "I'm going to go kill this stacker and only use 25% of my force" scenario. Even in a situation where I was playing more conservatively/realistically with my force, stackers still drain the average Jedi immensely.

[RemusStorm]

I would hope no one PvPs with a saber with such high FC lol. But with 4x -9's i think you can spam Dervish 2 for 5mins straight.

That's 5mins straight, no heals etc etc. But most builds also have Channel force, which paired with the Faction Base Janta Buffs 3700+ and the reduced dmg taken with robes on (FA2 is not even needed lol), you can use Channel ALOT, and not be worried about dying.

And to not even see Heal Health/Action/Mind 2 (singles) on your bars shows that, even while getting head hit, you only use healAll2 (which ive seen in a lot of Awakening Jedi PvP Vids) is nuts, it displays to me how low the FC cost of heals are on Awakening.

[Sevvy]

18-20 FC saber spamming a 3x FC ability. So each Dervish is costing you probably between 54-60 force. Yeahhhhh...

[Royan]

Both of you act like -9 FC pearls are found every other tune - if only. As I mentioned before, awakening appears to be a bit more rough with tuning than my memory of live. I can guarantee that a significant number of Jedi on the server do not have 4x -9. That's precisely why I wasn't using my 9's in the first place

[RemusStorm]

Both of you act like -9 FC pearls are found every other tune - if only. As I mentioned before, awakening appears to be a bit more rough with tuning than my memory of live. I can guarantee that a significant number of Jedi on the server do not have 4x -9. That's precisely why I wasn't using my 9's in the first place

Just use channel more often with those 3700 buffs and damage reduction robes...... not to mention maybe use heal mind 2 if getting attacked by rifleman, swordsman or CM???

[Royan]

Alright, let's assume both my characters would've had 3700 buffs instead of the 2450 or whatever I was using for it. What changes? My stacker gets the same regen bonus and intim 1/2 dmg wouldn't be enough to go through stacked brandy (3.6kish mind, bit less secondaries) from 1h. What of the 33% dmg reduction through PSGs my stacker wasn't using in the video? That sounds like a stalemate to the point that it wouldn't be worth the 1v1 fight more often than not

[bobaphat]

The robes are a product of the environment they exist in. They may very well be too strong but pve here is more difficult overall, BH hits harder and XP loss is considerably higher. So I say keep them or potentially split what they currently provide and buff the knight robes slightly. That would make more sense imo because right now Knight doesn't really matter.

Also, 24 points are going once we get the village, that much ED has made clear previously. So I imagine we will not have any Jedi with NBrawler after that happens. I would be more inclined to just outright nerf robes after the village/FR skills come in, if Jedi are still too strong.

[RemusStorm]

Alright, let's assume both my characters would've had 3700 buffs instead of the 2450 or whatever I was using for it. What changes? My stacker gets the same regen bonus and intim 1/2 dmg wouldn't be enough to go through stacked brandy (3.6kish mind, bit less secondaries) from 1h. What of the 33% dmg reduction through PSGs my stacker wasn't using in the video? That sounds like a stalemate to the point that it wouldn't be worth the 1v1 fight more often than not

Yes i get it, you struggle to kill a stacker 1v1. My point is, no one can kill jedi, they have no vulnerabilites in World PVP, only in the BH vs Jedi mini game.

I dont want to be forced to play MBH/LLC spam to PvP/kill jedi, i enjoyed group PvP and team work, not trap and Fast Blast spam.

Not only that, everyone seems to be missing the major issue with increasing jedi Accuracy. A full build stacker has more defenses than a combat/support, It then ruins it for anyone trying to play a ranged or melee/support build, they just get hit every time instead of having a chance for them to be missed/dodge/block/counter etc etc right???

[Royan]

What does alpha mean?

[bobaphat]

Also, I understand the point of your video is to emphasis how expensive a fight with a stacker is but really both sides are right here in a way. You could have easily used your bleed, healed individual bars, not used that kd/spin unless he's dizzy blah blah blah.

The thing is even with -9 FC sabers and optimal skill usage, a stacker should kill your force. That's kind of the point of the template and I don't think that should change. MLS/MENH was more popular on live (or at least the 2 servers I played on) because you could pick who you fought and when you fought them.

[Royan]

Also, I understand the point of your video is to emphasis how expensive a fight with a stacker is but really both sides are right here in a way. You could have easily used your bleed, healed individual bars, not used that kd/spin unless he's dizzy blah blah blah.

The thing is even with -9 FC sabers and optimal skill usage, a stacker should kill your force. That's kind of the point of the template and I don't think that should change. MLS/MENH was more popular on live (or at least the 2 servers I played on) because you could pick who you fought and when you fought them.

No I completely agree with you actually. I think it's essential stackers are hard to kill as a jedi. My series of posts were in response to the idea that stackers are somehow unviable and can't stand up to jedi whatsoever

Edit: Off for the night, I'll respond if necessary to anything else brought up regarding this topic tomorrow

[RemusStorm]

What does alpha mean?

Well enjoy the jedi wars to come, no one will be able to kill each other it will just be never ending fight of boring.

Or enjoy fighting MBH in the mini game.

I'm not QQing that i want to be buffed, or that my profession sucks, i just want to see the mass world PvP/GCW that i used to experience in live. It will never happen with the way the game is balanced at the moment.
'
Yes i see your point that stackers are hard to kill 1v1, but normal combat profession's damage in general is low and even lower vs Jedi. Who wants to play a profession that is solely there to run around tab and hit intimidate 1, intimidate 2 and tab to next jedi. When people work for that 900 max PH or get a 1k LVA etc etc, they want to do DAMAGE to jedi, on Awakening, a 900 max PH/450 VK/900 LVA does 80-100 damage to a jedi. That is so sad, no one wants to play that haha.

Anyway im sick of arguing, you win, jedi should be Alpha, take no damage, heal to full, do damage. Have fun :-)