Jedi/BH balance

[JohnFromSteam]

Before I start anything, I understand Jedi isn't an auto win button (devs have been making sure thats the case since the release of Jedi in the summer), but considering the grind it takes to even get full temp (quite long), Jedi vs BH using a LLC with a SL is just an easy win for the BH. Fast blast does too much dmg for what it is now, and since BH's can 1v1 Jedi in just half the time to get all of the equipment than grinding to get Jedi and gettin full temp pretty much makes Jedi useless until FRS starts making powers/other stuff powerful. Lowering the dmg on fast blast (if it is fast blast) and incentivising group bounty hunting would be nice (but knowing the BHs, they always win due to more peeps bitching bout it). I don't want Jedi to become novelty, not after putting so much thought and grind into them.

I do understand that Jedi are supposed to be hunted, but this server NOW has the population to get hunting parties, so you can turn down the LLC + fast blast wreckin machine (even kills non-Jedi faster lol)
Just my suggestion

[Celt]

I understand the thought process behind the suggestion, but I dont totally agree. I say that (and I mean this will all due respect), because this is the same thread that comes up any time we (as a profession) develop a new best practice. First it was group hunting, then beams, then traps, then dots etc. etc. And it continues. Whenever bounty hunters develop and test an effective strategy, many (not all) in the Jedi community cry foul. It comes up in three threads a week, and eventually the offending strategy is nerfed. The new hotness is LLC + fast blast + SL. It sucks, just like that previous strategies sucked for Jedi.

I hate to be a naysayer, but it simply feels like Jedi will never be happy until they cannot be hunted. Any strategy that is effective 1 v 1 is "overpowered". Yet, Jedi abhor be hunted when we come 3 and 4 deep. You can't have it both ways.

[DarkLordIce]

Fast Blast was tested and tweaked on player feedback over a period of weeks from the Test Server, its a little late now. That said, I'm sure the staff are monitoring it closely. My complaint would center more on the 10 second stun traps of overpoweredness than the fast blast.

C'mon Celt, to be fair, BH's whine about Jedi and them working out ways to escape/evade as much as Jedi whine about BH's being able to kill them. God damned diva classes! >:D

[Cynar]

The more you complain about something, the harder Ed is going to make it. If you haven't learned this lesson by now I'm not sure you ever will.


Gameplay can and will change often

[tarnwar]

To be fair BH fighting is alot of luck sometimes you hit 4-5 shots in a row and due crazy damage,

Other times you throw a trap, they block all 10 shots and murder you in a starport (well fought nill ..)



Disclaimer: this is not me saying buff/nerf anything just posting that it goes both ways.

[veaseomat]

jedi is advertised as an alpha class here... at least im pretty sure that's what it says in the brochure lol. I haven't experienced the pvp here yet so I cant talk from experience. BUT, most servers that have a decent jedi unlock and grind always start with a moderately powerful jedi and are constantly weakened over time. I played pre-9 all the way up until nge, the reason jedi got destroyed is because the DEVs listened to the community TOO much. Problem was they were listening to the wrong people, the casuals. Nothing wrong with being a casual player but I also don't think a casual player should go 1v1 toe to toe against a FULL template jedi. In pre-cu/ pre-village, a decked out/ skilled BH could probably 1v1 an unskilled full temp, or bad temp jedi. a bh with moderate gear was a solid match for a half template jedi, so probably not mls yet. a new BH would get his face pushed in against any jedi except an initiate... What its turning into is that if you are a jedi and you are not full temp and you are on the terms? you die. I also understand the DEVs want jedi to be in hiding, as they should be, unless full temp or knight with some FRS (soon i hope). so which one is it? do jedi get to be an alpha class? or do all of them need to be in hiding? obviously cant have both. If they need to be in hiding, I say don't advertise jedi as an alpha class. Like I said before, I'm just speaking from past experiences, but this grind is frikkin miserable dude. If I temp out and I struggle with every 1v1 bh I meet, I'll be a little disappointed. All of this work just to hold a lightstick? CU all over again.

[Kelec]

This post speaks to the heart of the balance problem. Celt nailed it when he said you can't have it both ways. That works for jedi and bounty hunters alike. You can not balance a class to be able to stand in one v one fight and then allow said class to have 3x advantage.

Since Celt laid out a series of thing that have been working for BH, I'd like to point out.

• BHs still hunt in group, TEF allows even larger hunting parties (I've been on both ends of this)
  Beams are still a thing (500 to 1000 damage is nothing take for granted, also lets not forget SOE removed these for a reason.)
  Traps are still a very real problem (CC isn't designed to be apart of this meta)
  Dot were always in the game, Fire was changed (not nerfed) by EMU because it was broken.

We're talking ourselves in circles at this point but the problems still remain. I very much want to fight BHs and win or lose on merits of who is the better player, not who has an OP wombo combo. DLI is completely right the problem lies in the traps not the damage of Fast Blast.

Also I'd really like it if we could all stop accusing each other of complaining about everything. If we can't come here to have a discussion about game mechanics really what is the point.

[Cynar]

jedi is advertised as an alpha class here... at least im pretty sure that's what it says in the brochure lol. I haven't experienced the pvp here yet so I cant talk from experience. BUT, most servers that have a decent jedi unlock and grind always start with a moderately powerful jedi and are constantly weakened over time. I played pre-9 all the way up until nge, the reason jedi got destroyed is because the DEVs listened to the community TOO much. Problem was they were listening to the wrong people, the casuals. Nothing wrong with being a casual player but I also don't think a casual player should go 1v1 toe to toe against a FULL template jedi. In pre-cu/ pre-village, a decked out/ skilled BH could probably 1v1 an unskilled full temp, or bad temp jedi. a bh with moderate gear was a solid match for a half template jedi, so probably not mls yet. a new BH would get his face pushed in against any jedi except an initiate... What its turning into is that if you are a jedi and you are not full temp and you are on the terms? you die. I also understand the DEVs want jedi to be in hiding, as they should be, unless full temp or knight with some FRS (soon i hope). so which one is it? do jedi get to be an alpha class? or do all of them need to be in hiding? obviously cant have both. If they need to be in hiding, I say don't advertise jedi as an alpha class. Like I said before, I'm just speaking from past experiences, but this grind is frikkin miserable dude. If I temp out and I struggle with every 1v1 bh I meet, I'll be a little disappointed. All of this work just to hold a lightstick? CU all over again.

Until I see someone with Jedi Master under their name they haven't made it all the way to Alpha. At this point everyone is still trying to (leveling) obtain Alpha status. Will Jedi be more power than most professions prior to the FRS, yes. That doesn't mean everyone with Jedi in their title can live up to the name.

[tarnwar]

Dot were always in the game, Fire was changed (not nerfed) by EMU because it was broken.

Fire dots were certainly nerfed. Your regen from buffs heals you faster than you take damage from them. ALL three dots are worthless vs jedi due to being able to heal poison and disease instantly and fire nerfed from overpowered to worthless garbage damage.

[veaseomat]

Lets also remember that we are trying to balance a game that was never really balanced in the first place lol. I'm pretty sure original swg was just a sandbox to "experience the best star wars story ever told... yours"

[Kelec]

Dot were always in the game, Fire was changed (not nerfed) by EMU because it was broken.

Fire dots were certainly nerfed. Your regen from buffs heals you faster than you take damage from them. ALL three dots are worthless vs jedi due to being able to heal poison and disease instantly and fire nerfed from overpowered to worthless garbage damage.

Did I say it was balanced?
It still does a damn good job of providing a black bar. It's free damage that can be applied and forgotten. The patch put in place limiters on the previously unlimited ramp. Should it probably do a little bit more base damage, more than likely, but it was a change for the better overall.

[jasonh]

Without taking this too far into left field, if you can't take a BH 1v1 right now as a full padawan, then adjust your template, your food, or your awareness. There are several variations that will work well, probably more with powers now. Doing so will gimp you a bit in jedi PvP, or will gimp you a bit in PvE. No magic button.

A BH and SL is already 2v1, only 1 is in your face. Get yourself a SL and make it 2v2 if that's the issue.

[Celt]

A BH and SL is already 2v1, only 1 is in your face. Get yourself a SL and make it 2v2 if that's the issue.

This.

It's hard for me to understand the complaints when there doesn't seem to be any attempt to adapt and survive on the part of the offended player. If you look at the evolution our class has made in the few short months since BH/Jedi got hot and heavy you will see the class adapt and adjust by leaps and bounds. We do not really see that from Jedi.

I blame the jedi community, to be honest. There is no unity. Within individual guilds there does seem to be some coordination (/tiphat CoA) but not across the class. As bounty hunters we do coordinate. Not completely, but there is a large majority of us who share best practices, strategies, templates and the like. <BH> was formed exactly for that purpose. Outside of the guild we also see alot of brainstorming. Every time I log in I seem to have a couple template or weapon conversations with hunters I dont know, or have only met in passing. On Valcyn <BLADE> was probably the best example of what Jedi can accomplish with coordination.

Long story longer...I simply think Jedi would get along much better if they tried to adapt and survive instead of being hunted, dying, and giving up. Resigning themselves to the fact that a certain template or strategy is overpowered instead of finding a way to defend themselves.

It's kinda like complaining that Combat Medics are OP, but refusing to take a tree in Doc.

[Pwntera]

Long story longer...I simply think Jedi would get along much better if they tried to adapt and survive instead of being hunted, dying, and giving up. Resigning themselves to the fact that a certain template or strategy is overpowered instead of finding a way to defend themselves.

The thing most Jedi hate about adapting to new things is it can take 2+ weeks for a Jedi to change their spec to fight the new BH FOTM and it might take a BH 2 or 3 hours to grind a new spec and a handful of credits to counter that new Jedi spec?

[Cynar]

I simply think Jedi would get along much better if they tried to adapt and survive instead of being hunted, dying, and giving up. Resigning themselves to the fact that a certain template or strategy is overpowered instead of finding a way to defend themselves.

Spot on.

And as an original member of Blade I can tell you it took a long time and the right people for it to work right. Onyx and Blade were the first two light and dark guilds to pull this off the right way. Later on it was guilds like Fraghaus and other guilds later on did well with hybrid groups of Jedi/stackers working together. It doesn't take a team to pvp, it takes a good team to get to that level.

Long story longer...I simply think Jedi would get along much better if they tried to adapt and survive instead of being hunted, dying, and giving up. Resigning themselves to the fact that a certain template or strategy is overpowered instead of finding a way to defend themselves.

The thing most Jedi hate about adapting to new things is it can take 2+ weeks for a Jedi to change their spec to fight the new BH FOTM and it might take a BH 2 or 3 hours to grind a new spec and a handful of credits to counter that new Jedi spec?

We always said it would be very hard. Not for those not willing to eat the pain to get to the top

[BigQEd]

Everyone needs to chill a little. No one is even Knight yet!. All Jedi are still baby Jedi... and we have folks doing epic rants... come on...

Not to mention, we just implemented a pretty good patch that I know people haven't fully tested (and yes there are differences even from what was on Test).

Time to stop complaining. Time to put your noses down and rethink your methods.

Jedi are Alpha.
MBHs are their bane.

P.S. Are there a bug bugs like using FB or other attacks with wrong weapons... yes but all those bugs come from the EMU and we are working to fix them.

[JohnFromSteam]

Everyone needs to chill a little. No one is even Knight yet!. All Jedi are still baby Jedi... and we have folks doing epic rants... come on...

Not to mention, we just implemented a pretty good patch that I know people haven't fully tested (and yes there are differences even from what was on Test).

Time to stop complaining. Time to put your noses down and rethink your methods.

Jedi are Alpha.
MBHs are their bane.

P.S. Are there a bug bugs like using FB or other attacks with wrong weapons... yes but all those bugs come from the EMU and we are working to fix them.

I never meant for rants to start, I just wanted to throw my suggestion and see what is the deal with FB and the LLC/Jebi. I'm glad I got replies to see and think about others opinions about my suggestion but all in all I ain't complainin.

[crestonanto]

Make the best attempt you can to turn the fight to be on your terms not theirs.

[jasonh]

FWIW, and understanding small sample size, I wanted to add some positive to what is often a negative discussion. As a jedi I had my mission taken twice last night. I lost both, but I think balance is almost perfect given the current strength of a fully templated Jedi padawan, BH attacks, and the approximate ratio of win/loss based on number of hunters.

1. The first was an overwhelming loss. I had stintaril blinders on and ran across some Black Sun spawn. I was prepping to attack them; getting food from crates, wrong toolbars up, about as underprepared as one could be when that blue flash of a BH trap hits you. I got smoked and deserved it. (/Tiphat, great timing whether you knew it or not!)

2. The second was more what I would call an ideal scenario for BH/jedi. In the wilderness, I was driving and had a few seconds to food up when I saw the speeders incoming. It was two MBHs fast blasting away, using traps. I healed, chased one, etc. and almost had him down when I couldn't get that last heal off, or didn't block those two last shots, or whatever. I feel like that this engagement could have gone either way (good fight to the two involved) and am confident had I gotten the first down, I could've handled the second. It felt right, all around.

Maybe some rebalance will come into play when 24 FS points are in (or not, we'll see I suppose), but, to me, this second engagement seemed about as balanced as can be right now (and was a hell of a lot of fun).

.02