A (likely very unpopular) suggestion re: alts

[TheRealTK421]

Awakeners,

Not sure if this is the right place but I was advised by Stack to open this topic here (on the forums somewhere).

If/when commenting, please remain civil, constructive and on-point (as this topic could 'raise some cackles' for many folks).

It relates to alts, 'bots', AFK'ing and so on. I think having 10 toons (and 2 active) is probably helpful insofar as building population some or making certain things workable early on for players. It's also great that people can try different things out to see what they may like. It is undeniably useful and helpful in a sense. This may be even more of a factor given the timezones people are logging in from worldwide. However...

(from Raph Koster's website, Chief Creative Dir, SWG - a very worthy series to read, IMO):
http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/21/de ... -part-one/

"...the entire game was built around the idea of weak-tie interdependence: the idea that people you don’t know well at all are in fact crucial to your survival, and important, and matter."

I bring this up because I had a friend I tried to get into things here and she is all about social/dancing/music, etc. She wound up signing off today due to a bot being built for IDs for 24/7 available stat migration. I understand ID isn't a super popular profession and it isn't available "24/7" on a moment's notice all over the galaxy...especially for those that play in different timezones.

But I think she made valid points vis a vis bots 'taking her job(s)'. How many of us have alts leveling Ent AFK? Or similar? How many times do Docs actually buff **atk**? Why would people play as any of those profs if macro-bots replace the need for them nearly wholesale? I know there are people that do play ATK and, please understand, I'm not being absolutist on this matter.

For me (and her), it all breaks the aforementioned weak-interdependence that was supposed to be the social cornerstone of the game. I can't say that I blame her perspective. She says to me, "It's like wanting and loving to drive a taxi in a world where all the taxi's are self-driving cars that everyone uses."

I hope this won't get locked and am trying to open a **civil** and constructive discussion on what may be possible to alleviate some of this. I think we'd all be better in a galaxy where ATK'ing was the norm because everyone could do the fun prof they love. I know this is something of a chicken vs. egg thing and definitely has no easy answer. Some will hate the idea of changes that might affect how things are currently (i.e. maybe having to wait for certain things til a live/ATK person is available, or travel a lil more or farther for certain services, etc.)

I don't know what can/should be done but it feels like a topic worthy of (civil, constructive) discussion on what can make Awakening better for everyone.

Thoughts? Comments? Interpretive dances?


/kowtow

[bobaphat]

An ATK Ent/Doc can do very well for themselves, better than an AFK one i'm sure but you'll obviously be investing much more time. Competing with the AFK services was something that had to be done on live but from my experience most people were and will be more generous to those they know are actively playing over the bots. I know I try to be.

What your friend needs to do though is realize that as an ENT/ID, it's the solo group and availability that will most likely sell her in the beginning. Then she can build a following much easier. I would suggest if she is an ENT to focus on getting an AT-ST/Spec ops and finding an Ent District/IJM city that she can call home base. Outside of say Dathomir/Yavin/Endor - which would be a case by case thing imo- I would suggest finding a good player city as the NPC ones are generally covered or not utilized. Have her start advertising as an ATK Ent, in auction chat, talk in Gen chat and talk in her group chat. Another idea I would suggest is to try and be friendly with high level pve farmers, know a group going to DWB? Well, offer to come give them Ent buffs at the Outpost etc, this would also help in getting the (expensive) 125/125 stats she'll want.

Personally, I am all for AFK buff bots. I think they serve a very valuable purpose and i'm extremely happy that I can log on at 6 am before work or 4 am after a late night and get an Ent/Doc buff if I need one.

[Rhaige9]

Yeah, there's afk bots all over the galaxy. Docs, ent, and now an ID. I don't think they're really putting anyone out of a job. Sometimes the doc bots have an issue where their enhance packs don't fire, and you hear in gen chat someone looking for just a stam buff, or jest a health buff, because the doc malfunctioned. The dance/music bot isn't switching to dance after music, or isn't inviting. The new ID bot, well a lot of people aren't looking for JUST a stat migration. I have a Master ID. They get to me for a stat migration, and decide, hey, while we're at it, can you make me taller/change my hair color/ make me not fat anymore? The AFK Doc, isn't going to have buffs as high as someone even Semi ATK, because they aren't going to waste bivoli on a macro to get the stats up there. Sure I'll use the bot sometimes, but when I'm going to go do some higher end stuff, I'll travel for someone giving out higher buffs.

Anyone can have 10 toons. Keeping active on all 10 toons? Unless you spend 20 hours a day playing the game, it's almost impossible. I have three that I haven't even logged in, in over a month except to place harvesters. It's so hard keeping up on crafting all the needed items for sub components for jest poisons and diseases, I haven't branched out at all to heals. I could never have all the needed crafting professions to totally self sufficient, and not need to rely on other players.

[Anlbrd]

I think the issue comes down to HOW to play those classes if you want to do it actively. I'm happy with the fact that I can get AFKbuffed in certain cantinas consistently. As far as rules pertaining to the current AFK capacity of characters and char limit - I'm fine with it. The playerbase in terms of attendance and quantity is too volatile to regress to anything like the 1toon/acc limit from live and I for one would vehemently oppose changes that mean I (A GMT timezone player, and in a minority because of it) would have to pray someone is on in my timzeone to buff me, or HAVE TO grind my own doc and ent.

Re: HOW to play entertainers/doctors actively - I don't want to do it but IF however I did - I'd offer a travelling service. A mobile doctor. There you have it, a USP that bots can never compete with. Mobile ent-buffs would have to be married up with a ranger for camps I would imagine, but again - it's doable. And if you intend to play an entertainer full time, what else are you spending your time on if not the mastering of your craft (Not just the grinding of the profession)?

If however you mean that the current ability of buffbots to do their job should diminish so that a minority of players can sit there, basically being a buffbot - I disagree wholeheartedly. The EMU just doesn't have the players.

[Anlbrd]

Something which I don't think can be overstated is this - This discussion MUST be tempered by the fact that we are NOT dealing with Live. We're not in anywhere near the same position re: playerbase or developer resources. Your point about the interconnected society is simply moot in it's original capacity because we're dealing with a situation which isn't, and 99% likely will never be like live. We are going to be much better off developing with our own, ideosyncratic little setup in mind. To go down the other road - 'ere be dragons.

[Anlbrd]

I asked a load of people to write mail to me as to WHY they play the profession they do. With entertainers the answers have been quite interesting. Had your friend come through <NEW> and said "I want to be an entertainer" I would have included some general info and followed up with a testimonial I have on mail to send out to aspiring entertainers. If your friend wants to come back at all, have him/her read this:

The reason I chose to do this is two-fold really. I wanted to provide a service to my guild and to anyone needing entertainer buffs or higher paying missions, and of course, to make some credits! Having a full time entertainer in the town really helps boost our crafters' business, which I love!
>
> Becoming a solo group leader that people actually use and recommend is not easy. Aside from the leveling, most of the work will be preparation. You will need to buy +25 in both dance mind enhance and music mind enhancement tapes. Typically these are some of the most expensive in the galaxy due to their rarity. You will likely need to have another character as an additional source of income for this. Expect to pay millions, especially for the higher number amount ones. You will also need to acquire a factional pet to help boost your group's mission payouts. Unless you also have a combat prof, this will mean buying faction from a smuggler. You need enough faction to get to rank 3 and then to buy your pet. This will also cost millions. Additional prep work involves setting up working macros. You will also need to find a location that you think people will frequent. Finding a doctor friend to pair with will make success easier.
>
> You can choose to be a full time ATK entertainer if you choose. I am mostly AFK, with my main checking in on me often while I am awake to make sure things are running smoothly. I also have my name colored via the chat options, so if someone shouts in general with an issue, it stands out. I allow other entertainers to join my group, however if I get full, they will be removed so paying customers can get buffs. Since for some reason I cannot seem to get my macros to auto log me back on after resets/restarts, I also have my guild alert me via Facebook when the server goes down if I am not active on the game to see it. If I am sleeping while this happens, they put up a back up.
>
> My day starts out with me logging back on when I get up in the morning. Typically this is about 45 minutes after reset. I go through mails, and update my top tips list as needed. Then I set up my ATST, start my macros, and go! I may spend some part of each day playing her at the keyboard, but mostly I am afk on an alt. Sometimes this is a pain, as one of my two slots is basically unavailable to me due to the nature of always being online and grouped with other people. Being dedicated to providing this service means giving up one of your slots. However, I find this rewarding enough knowing the service I provide both to my community and to my town and guild are both needed and appreciated!

In summary - This is what end-game entertainer looks like within the confines of the game most of us love. Whilst there might be minor adjustments - this IS working as intended, really. If your friend wants to write dance/music routines and tour them around, cantina to cantina quite casually, they can. Just like if I want to go and shoot worrts all day I can. It won't make me ready to solo nightsisters, nor will it prepare me for any other kind of end-game pve.

TL;DR - There is room on a server with a population like ours for a dedicated entertainer to feel very valued. One of the primary obstacles to members of <NEW> who've left in search of fame & fortune to set up cities has been acquiring and keeping a dedicated entertainer and/or doctor player who will go the extra mile and make sure that their service is elite. Your city is only as well-travelled as your ameneties, and the entertainer is a HUGE part of that.

[PepiDeto]

Also you have to remember that the ones who are regular not AFK have the advantage. My guild has a AFK doc who buffs and same with an ent. However if there is a server crash/reset if they are AFK they might not come back up an that is when the live ones have the advantage. They are able to log back in and provide the needed services until those can come up.

But I always did wonder as to how the bots get paid. Most times I tip what I can when I can because my guild offers free buffs to guildies. It is the one thing I never could figure out. Besides adding them to an auto ignore list.

[TheRealTK421]

First off, thanks for everyone who's replied so far for being helpful, respecful, civil and giving advice. No one is looking to ruin anything (or take anything away or 'nerf') - just make it better, of course. It's always about making things better.

I will definitely point my pal to this thread to consider your input and I think a lot of it is valuable, insightful and worthwhile. Being a crafter (sometimes combat) type, I can't really speak from experience or entirely relate to her concerns. It's true that this isn't Live nor will be as such...so some things will be different. I most certainly not suggesting or advocating for changes to disable 'buffbots' in their entirety or anything of the sort. What I don't think anyone really wants is entire professions being 90% AFK and 10% ATK. If I had to guess, we probably all want the opposite, in fact! This isn't a thread about anti-AFK but about *pro* ATK. I think we can all admit that Ents/Docs maybe have it harder than most in such a scenario.

Combat and crafting and other stuff all but literally requires ATK play, whereas the Ent/Music/ID 'more social' professions don't exactly. When I mentioned this is chat, a lot people said they prefer ATKs and try to support that. For my pal, at least, she hadn't experienced that thus far. I think that is more because she isn't guilded and spent more time in NPC city cantinas (ME, Cor, etc.) that were bot-heavy to start with...so it may have skewed her perspective. I like the idea, and will try to sell her on it, on taking up in a player city and/or a 'wild' planet.

NOTE: While on Endor and Dath the last 2 days, I noted that neither had an Ent/Doc of any kind at all in the cantina, etc. So...it is very viable that there's a market there.

I hope to encourage her to 'tweak' her playstyle some and maybe carve something out that she will find more satisfying and gratifying.

I don't think any of us wants to see what my pal called "bot universe", when we can have more ATKs and not less. Some of the input and suggestions will help a lot with that so I thank you folks for taking the time. Of course, if you have other thoughts...kick 'em in!


/kowtow

[Maldred]

Great thread.

Only thing I have to add regarding this is I ALWAYS will tip an ATK Doc/Ent at least twice as much as I will a bot. Let your friend know that ATK means more to some of us than bots do. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful fro the bots and they do have a place here but there is something a little more special about someone who plays their support toon ATK.

[jasonh]

Lots of great points in this thread.

All things take time to build. Whether ATK or otherwise, the premier ents in the game have earned it. They've been around a very long time (given the age of the server), or they've worked well within a guild or group of folks who collectively created a city, attracting folks there. While it might be counter-intuitive, it was through utilizing the interdependency of the game that made them important for our community, as in the original post.

One area I might also suggest to your pal is looking for the emerging RP community, which seems a ripe market for an ATK ent. Whether or not she decides to enter that community, it seems she undoubtedly needs to explore more social/busy areas of the galaxy and find her niche; it seems she hasn't yet given it a chance.

[NiklzNDimz]

I empathize with your friend wholeheartedly on this. It is lonely and isolating to stand in a cantina with 20 AFK, spamming, buffbots while you try to work your way up the entertainment trees. However, for the reasons already posted in this thread, changing the mechanics away from multiple characters or buffbots would do more harm than good.

Just like the real world where you have the mega-shop stores that offer the biggest selection, at the best prices, 24/7, there is still room for the small-scale operation with a dedicated following. I know of six players in my circle of contacts who have recently complained about the lack of ATK entertainers and doctors to get a buff from or heal BF/wounds. There are many, many more who feel the same. We begrudgingly hand over credits to the bots because we can't afford to get added to the ignore list for not tipping a non-playing player. Does it matter whether the buff is 125% and lasts 3 hours instead of 2 hours 20 minutes? Nope, not to everyone. The really nice player who was available to chit-chat with is what does matter. Social, ATK players are the sticky goey center of any gaming community.

If your friend changes her mind about leaving, some of us with entertainers and crafters to grind have moved over to Coronet. I can't guarantee I'm ATK all the time (I have to work) but the lack of spam alone is enough to save one's sanity. Get into a friendly guild too. You'd be amazed at how many people will go out of their way to stop by a guildie/friend working on their entertainer skills to visit and help them out with the healing xp.

[Lasod]

last year there was a 10 page discussion with a poll that was posted by the awakening devs
this topic has been discussed enough IMO

http://swgawakening.com/viewtopic.php?f ... cter+slots

and on a side note you cannot do afk stat migrations the ID window will not let that happen so if someone is actually doing afk stat migrations then they are using a 3rd party program and violating the awaking rules

i understand that it can be daunting to be a full time ent in a sea of afk entertainers. like trying to start a successful competitive crafter, it takes time for the world to know that you are offering things, and sometimes you have to cut costs to get noticed or find a niche market that is looking for someone to be in a specific location at a specific time. you can find it SWG was built for you to be able to get it done

but one thing is for sure, it wont happen in the first few weeks of joining a server

[darriandm]

I was one of the people who voted for less characters in that original thread, and as someone who now has a master doc, a rifleman stacker, a close to master dancer/musician, a master armorsmith and an unlocked (but bugged and waiting to be fixed) force sensitive, I stand by that original opinion and would sacrifice some of those if that's what it meant.

Having swg back in any form is nice and way better than not having it at all, but we haven't and won't achieve that same feeling because of this. But people won't want to give up their characters and are already used to the convenience so it won't happen and I've long since accepted that. You definitely are capable of making a living as an ATK doc or ent, probably much more so then the afkers.

[beowulfchauffeur]

As others have pointed out, this was discussed at length several months back when there was a poll open on the subject in the General Discussion section.

For my own part, I think 10 is a bit many, but I also think that to scale back from existing numbers means requiring many, perhaps most of the players on the server to delete existing characters, which I don' like the thought of.

There's a lot of auxiliary factors to be considered, for example, without house packup, there's not necessary a clean way to preserve the structures which would be lost in a potential transition from 10 chars to another limit. In the case of drastic population reduction, many cities on the server would probably be lost (I've seen the argument that if those cities can't exist without being propped up by substantial alt populations, they shouldn't exist at all. It has some merit, but it still makes for a messy transition with people potentially losing cities they've spent months upkeeping).

But I think she made valid points vis a vis bots 'taking her job(s)'. How many of us have alts leveling Ent AFK? Or similar? How many times do Docs actually buff **atk**? Why would people play as any of those profs if macro-bots replace the need for them nearly wholesale? I know there are people that do play ATK and, please understand, I'm not being absolutist on this matter.

On a specific and personal note, I spent the first half of my time on the server so far playing an ATK doctor at a time when there were almost no doctors outside of buffbots. I had absolutely no problem with buffbots "taking business" from me. Entertainers might be another matter, but my personal experience is that many players prefer ATK docs and will actively seek them out.

[lassic]

I am the same way. I will pay the min to an afk bot, but just about double to an ATK bot. When I can get an ent buff from an ATK player who focuses on me without me having to drop group, and get a doc buff... etc... I love it. I also love being able to hit one of the key afk spots when I am playing at an irregular time. Thanks for the discussion. I love it.

[Cynar]

Anytime I see the name Raph Koster in a thread now I cringe. The man blogged after 13 years of silence and it's like people have found a new messiah. Yes I though it was all good reading, but it's good reading from a developer that failed to make a completed working project. The game was full of bugs way into NGE so I don't worship at the golden alter of Raph Koster.

People that tried it early on that left, left because the damn game was broken. The few of us that hung around, did so because we just coped with the broken because it was the only Star Wars mmo. That's the only reason. I loved the game, the worlds, and most of all I loved my community. Had it not been for the fact it was Star Wars and my server community was awesome I would have ditched it like so many other failed online games.

The thing that sets a player apart from a bot is the person. People tend to hit up bots because they are simple, constant, maybe sometimes they just don't want human interaction. A huge portion of our community seeks out or yearns for that human interaction. People build a business in this economy, not bots. Blaming a bot for failed interaction or business is a failure on your friends part. You have to establish that business and make people want to use you in lieu of a vending machine.

[Pyrozest]

Wow Cynar....well said.

[huan]

I think limiting alts is a great idea. 10 is entire too many.

It would force a more integrated economy, more social interaction, less drama and backstabbing in factional PVP, and it would also force us to look at which classes work and which ones don't and need love in what areas.

The common refrain if you want to talk balance is make another toon. If you want to PVE make a melee stacker. If you want to PVP... make a melee stacker. haha. I think eventually if you want the server to grow and you want people to enjoy every aspect of the game you can't just accept that the game is fine. Pre-cu is awesome, but it needs to grow organically and work out the kinks.

I think it gives us a bloated sense of how healthy the server is too. I know we all want awakening to be a success, but if it's really just 100 people with 10 alts it's ignoring some problems. It's also not really a hard mode server if everybody can roll a class that is suitable to whatever they want to do. It just means you have to invest more time into rolling alts.. not that it's harder. Nobody is relying on any class to play a roll, when you just find what class performs the best and everybody has one.

I think having an AFK doc is just necessity for how the game is built. The game requires 10 minutes or so of prep time to even play. AFK bots exist because of that. If you want to get rid of them make buffing easier and quicker. No player wants to sit in a Cantina and buff minds for 8 hours. It just doesn't work as a social dynamic. It's a good idea to make players come to Cantina's to interact I suppose but it's an afterthought.

[TheRealTK421]

Cynar n' thread-folks,

Thanks for taking the time to respond - we all know you're a quite busy fellow. I didn't want this to really be about how Live was back in the day (good or bad) or a historical anaylsis of SWG's issues along the way. That's water under the bridge. We do our thing in how Awakenings is *now*, not how things were THEN. I wanted to simply point at the 'weak-tie interdependence' thing that was a fundamental cornerstone of the game/world design. It's true that if I want to build a biz, I have to do so by paying attention to what I do, what I build, how I spend my time, how I provide customer service, etc. But it's also true that if I want service X or Y, I need not necessarily interact with someone who runs such a business...just make a toon and do it all myself.

Example: Just today, I bought clothes for 2 toons from Mlor (highly recommend). If I had really wanted to, I could have simply built a Tailor toon and done everything myself. Believe me, I considered it too. But I know that would have meant no biz from me for Mlor, for those 2 toons or any others I might create down the line, and I get the features of Tailor forever even if every fashion shop goes under.

I think for a *healthy* and correctly functioning economy, that simply isn't sustainable. If I created 10 toons and template everything right, I need never buy anything from anyone ever. Just do it all myself - FOR myself. But...this isn't a single-player game or 'galaxy'. It's a galaxy where I want and expect to have to purchase goods and services from others - just as I want them purchasing mine. When I want Wookiee armor, I want to buy from an AS that makes it great, knows the product well and pays attention to their craft. I can understand that multi-alts per acct is/was a needed thing to give things a push as Awakenings got moving but this is also about the longer-term sustainability of a functioning economy too.

AFK/bot stuff isn't gonna go away nor am I suggesting that we shouldn't have a certain amount of convenience vis a vis buffbots or similar. As I said, I'd prefer to have this discussion more about having people ATK in their (most) desired roles and how the economy can constructively be healthy, sustainable and 'operating as intended'.

For me - I actually think something more like 4 total toons with 1 online at a time is better. It lets me try things and have some flexibility, which is super cool. But I'm an oddball in a lot of ways (mastered Arch without making a single Gungan Head statue). I don't know how I'd feel if I knew for a fact that my droid biz was suffering cause people just rolled an MDE and all of a sudden my products stopped moving. How would I stay in business?!

I think it applies in this (MMO/SWG) context and is a quote that I love:

"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly..." ~ Thomas Paine

/kowtow

[Vikshtrum]

Sure is a ton of speculation that the server wouldn't be able to sustain itself if we continue letting people make their own *Insert Every Profession Here*, (which is ludicrous to think people would actually do that en masse.) But most of this reads as unfounded assumptions linked to an SWG originalist ideology, that the way it was in Live shall doth be the way it is forever.

Yesterday Riku asked me if I liked to play SWG solo, to which I replied "yea for the most part." He then fired back that I should not play SWG, I should go back to WoW (the fuck?) or some other MMO that doesn't require socializing. Now, while nobody here has taken such a crass/dictatorial tone, saying the devs should change the game in several ways that will allegedly "force" us into socializing flirts with the same type of "reasoning." The game is full to the goddang brim with interactions, with needing to seek ppl out for various goods/services. I don't want to craft weapons... do you really think I'd make a WS just so I can do my own repairs, or that the entire server will do that? Or that every CH would want to do whatever the hell it is that Merrie does to make pets? Or make FOOD like any of the server's chefs? And who would undertake a profession like Tailor "simply" to make their own clothes instead of relying on one of the many outstanding ones already in place? Plus, who needs clothes that often?!

Apologies, I don't mean this in a rude way, but it's kind of becoming clear some people just want to provide a contrary point to everything. For instance, despite ample evidence and numerous attempts to convince otherwise, some people still believe stackers are the only way to both PvE and PvP. Bottom line: it (as in the various builds available, or how allowing 10 alts is crushing the server's economy and preventing people from getting to know their local smith or artisan) is not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Please, prove me otherwise.