Balancing jedi vs. BH after FS.

[RemusStorm]

Strategy is key

I'm sorry but having to pay BHs to kill jedi if you want to GCW PvP is a joke, again, game shouldn't be based around bh vs jedi.


It doesn'tsolve anything either, 3 BHs come to kill 1 jedi..... while the other 3-4 jedi are unkillable , healing their group and killing your ranged etc etc

Its just the game lol, I personally dont think pvp is broken its just no one wants to at all.Also paying BH's for kills isn't a joke. Its what BH's do and are lol

It definitely isn't SWG pre-cu. I guess this isn't the server for me.

Why would i pay a BH when i can just log on mine and kill jedi, the exact reason GCW PvP is dead.

If you don't think PvP is broken then you have either never PvPd on here or you are clueless haha

Oh well, doesn't really matter, the No.1 thing PvP needs for it to work, is PLAYERS, and server is dead at the moment.

[Cynar]

The reason this game had and has so many problems is that it relies on the player to create their own content past what was built into the core content. Sandbox games(besides Minecraft) will always have a problem due to the fact people want their content served up for them and most don't want to put real time into anything. Extremely creative people are drawn to this game in my opinion, the fps shooter types get bored too easy since the content does flow for them.

People who want to mold the galaxy will survive through the growing pains, players dips/spikes, core server changes and so on. The game is about to celebrate it's 14th year, it's a buggy emu now as opposed to live and it's just a older chunk of live at that. Jedi vs BH doesn't doom the game, nothing we do as players or staff doom the game, the game will doom itself. You can add planets, content, items, new missions and story and it still has to compete with the rest of the world and all its new shiny play-toys. SWG was born into a uphill battle and will always struggle because it appeals only to a small niche crowd.

Sorry to flow in and off topic, but players need to dig in and realize this game is alway going to struggle, not one part of the game dooms the other, nor does it's players, or the people who run it.

[Celt]

Why would i pay a BH when i can just log on mine and kill jedi, the exact reason GCW PvP is dead.

PvP is dead because the servers two largest and most active guilds imploded after their respective leadership (at that time, not those who stayed) started a dramafest and began spewing social media cancer bombs. If you cannot be patient and wait for things to level out, then you are right, maybe this server isn't for you.

Not telling you to GTFO, but Cynar was spot on with his MMO-theory explanation. Sandbox games are always in an ebb and flo issue with population. No way around that, no matter how big you get. This is the state of the game. Find some other min-game to get involved in. I love BH/Jedi, pvp is my secondary minigame. So my situation is reversed, but its the same point. Find something else to beat. Obviously WS isnt it, so find something else. Build a city, start a guild, grind an alt or two, farm Krayts or NS or SMC, go BH. Finish leveling your Jedi, or whatever. If pvp is the only reason you play this game, then you are probably one of those guys better suited for WoW of BF.

[Celt]

I'm sorry but having to pay BHs to kill jedi if you want to GCW PvP is a joke

You think we should assist you in your pvp endeavors out of the goodness of our black hearts? Of course it makes sense to have to pay us to eliminate Jedi from the pvp scene. Most Jedi in that situation are going to run and play house mouse, removing our ability to collect. If you want us to show up and even the playing field then make it worth our while.

[BigQEd]

I feel a Jabba laugh coming on... PvP is a community based activity... it is what you make it...

In all seriousness, it's a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. The REAL issue players should worry about is the security of their toons. Awakening is the ONLY server available today that will be available in 5 years! That is a promise. End of story.

*drops mic*

[tnick]

I'm sorry but having to pay BHs to kill jedi if you want to GCW PvP is a joke

You think we should assist you in your pvp endeavors out of the goodness of our black hearts? Of course it makes sense to have to pay us to eliminate Jedi from the pvp scene. Most Jedi in that situation are going to run and play house mouse, removing our ability to collect. If you want us to show up and even the playing field then make it worth our while.

I think he was saying it was a joke because the only people that can kill a Jedi is a BH, not that we have to hire you which even then we don't, we just get on our own BH's and take care of business. But even getting that result is still not GCW PVP, it brings the circle back to the beginning in the BH vs Jedi game.

[Sevvy]

Its just the game lol, I personally dont think pvp is broken its just no one wants to at all.Also paying BH's for kills isn't a joke. Its what BH's do and are lol

It's not just the game. It's this server.

PvP on this server is totally broken because Jedi are insanely overpowered. An already alpha class was further buffed, so that there could be this BH vs. Jedi mini-game that is basically BHs Fast Blast spamming with a LLC and throwing traps that make you unable to move or use abilities for a few seconds. Honestly, the system is not great. Having played both sides of the BH vs. Jedi conflict, and having been very successful with both, I can tell you that there isn't much to the fight. I could get deeper into it, but that's not the point here.

The result of the changes made to BHs and Jedi(and Jedi robes), has been that most people don't want to PvP unless they're on their Jedi, or they don't want to PvP at all unless they have a Jedi. Look no further than the Imperials who stopped fighting. Their PvP groups were sometimes ALL Jedi. We could not compete with them, until we had Jedi. Once we had a group of Jedi and regular toons, we wiped the floor with them.

Because of the attention given to BHs and Jedi on this server, it has rendered almost all of the other 10+ combat professions all but useless in PvP. No one can kill my Jedi. No one on a regular toon. No stackers. No CMs. Not 5 people on their regular toons. 2 BHs could possibly kill me if they had 1300+ damage LLCs and trapped me at the perfect time, but if I'm able to use my environment to my advantage, they're dead. It takes 3 BHs trapping me and spamming Fast Blast to kill me. Which by the way, if anyone thinks that takes any skill, or is any fun at all, just... no.

The changes made to this server, while making this server interesting and unique, have at the same time, totally broken everything in regards to PvE and PvP. We started PvEing with one tank, one commando, and as many Master BHs as we could, Fast Blast spamming mobs. No one on this server could compete with us in PvE. Not even the so-called best guild on the server. Once we got our Jedi to full template, no one could compete with us in PvP either. And all we did, was realize how broken things were and used that to our advantage.

The only way to fix it, is to either attempt to buff and balance about 12 non-Jedi/non-BH combat classes, remove Jedi COMPLETELY from PvP, or revert the changes you made to Jedi and BHs. I'm just not convinced that any of those things would ever happen. So PvP can never really be great here imo. I'm not trying to slam those that work hard on this server, and I definitely enjoyed the time I've spent here. I'm just telling you how it is.

I feel a Jabba laugh coming on... PvP is a community based activity... it is what you make it...

In all seriousness, it's a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. The REAL issue players should worry about is the security of their toons. Awakening is the ONLY server available today that will be available in 5 years! That is a promise. End of story.

*drops mic*

PvP is community-based, yes. You are correct. But while PvP is what WE make it. PvP is also what YOU made it. And to be honest, it's extremely broken. Unfortunately, it's not a minor issue to a lot of people.

[Celt]

PvP on this server is totally broken because Jedi are insanely overpowered. An already alpha class was further buffed, so that there could be this BH vs. Jedi mini-game that is basically BHs Fast Blast spamming with a LLC and throwing traps that make you unable to move or use abilities for a few seconds. Honestly, the system is not great.

I can't really argue this point as I tend to agree. I do not believe that is the only reasons pvp sucks (for the moment) here, but it's part of it. I have said it before, with the village coming, voicing complaints that are old hat are pointless. The village and it's ancillary effects will be a massive change and may very well accomplish what you are talking about.

On a secondary point you raised, I am not a fan of nerfs. Buffing the other classes is the optimal choice in my opinion, but I hope you can understand the time that takes considering we essentially have a single developer and not a team.

[Sevvy]

On a secondary point you raised, I am not a fan of nerfs. Buffing the other classes is the optimal choice in my opinion, but I hope you can understand the time that takes considering we essentially have a single developer and not a team.

I don't understand this mindset. Nerfing 2 classes = buffing 12. It's the same thing. It's just that one of those solutions takes a hell of a lot longer, and a hell of a lot more balancing and tweaking. And if Jedi and BHs weren't buffed in the first place, there wouldn't be a need to nerf them.

I know that people don't like being nerfed. But even less than that, do I enjoy making 1 or 2 classes perform so far above the rest that it makes combat not even fun nor competitive as any other class.

The problem with game companies, and especially MMO nerfs, is that they can't tone down an ability to 90% effectiveness. Instead, they often overnerf the shit out of classes and leave them unable to compete. That wouldn't happen here if the changes were reverted. Granted, you wouldn't be able to Fast Blast spam with a LLC, and you'd probably have to have a BH/melee combo. But we've talked about our experiences as melee BHs before. They were both fun, and they challenged Jedi if the BH was good enough.

[Celt]

I am all for the return of melee BHs. Unfortunately, on this server, it ain't gonna happen.

I do see the logic behind nerfing 2 classes over buffing many more. I also see the uproar that causes. Keep in mind, BH has been nerfed several times and nearly always due to Jedi complaints. Beams, fire, traps etc. FB is a new addition and greatly helped even the playing field. It was needed and I dont see the value in nerfing us yet again. All it means is we would need teams of 5 or 6 for everyone. Then the complaint will be groups need to be capped at three. Once you give in to nerfs it will never end, so I may see the logic in the concept but I cant support it.

[jasonh]

It's hard to blame lack of PvP on the presence of jedi. A majority didn't partake well before jedi arrived. I did a bit (not nearly as much as some others), but I got bored of being a red dot and not being shot up. So I get the frustration there, but I think it's a broader issue than having jedi in the mix. Ask Bobaphat or Remoku how much PvP there was a year and a half ago, they were among the few running around overt basically all the time.

In one sentence you say a mixed group (Jedi and regular combat) wipes the floor in PvP, then the next that almost all non-jedi classes are basically useless. You can't have it both ways. And how many of those combat professions are useful in PvP if you remove jedi from the equation? I tend to agree with the first point, as the right mixed group just offers more hurdles than can be dealt with...but it's still limited in which classes will be most effective in PvP.

No system is perfect, but Vanilla Emu servers or bonus XP servers inevitably become 20-man jedi fights in Theed.

That idea drives me nuts, so I'll take Awakening's version any day.

[Sevvy]

In one sentence you say a mixed group (Jedi and regular combat) wipes the floor in PvP, then the next that almost all non-jedi classes are basically useless. You can't have it both ways. And how many of those combat professions are useful in PvP if you remove jedi from the equation? I tend to agree with the first point, as the right mixed group just offers more hurdles than can be dealt with...but it's still limited in which classes will be most effective in PvP.

Pretty much Jedi, CM/Rifleman, BH. Maybe a Master Brawler to drop both Intims on people. With a couple of Master Healer Jedi to keep the non-Jedi upright.

I've been active in PvP since I've been here. I've talked to a lot of people about a lot of things. One of the things that has stuck with me, is that there are always more Jedi on the way up, then they'll PvP when their template is done. No one talks about getting their Rifleman done to PvP, or their stacker. It's always about how many Jedi are on their way up.

Maybe the GCW would still be dead if there were no Jedi. I suppose we'll never know. And I wasn't here when the server first came up, so I can't really speak to that. Although, I feel like people would be more likely to PvP on normal combat toons if there wasn't the threat of an unkillable super-class that will slaughter them in 10 seconds running around all over the place.

I mean, I have a full template Jedi. I'm good at it. I'd still give it up if it helped fix PvP on this server.

[tnick]

In one sentence you say a mixed group (Jedi and regular combat) wipes the floor in PvP, then the next that almost all non-jedi classes are basically useless. You can't have it both ways. And how many of those combat professions are useful in PvP if you remove jedi from the equation? I tend to agree with the first point, as the right mixed group just offers more hurdles than can be dealt with...but it's still limited in which classes will be most effective in PvP.

Pretty much Jedi, CM/Rifleman, BH. Maybe a Master Brawler to drop both Intims on people. With a couple of Master Healer Jedi to keep the non-Jedi upright.

I've been active in PvP since I've been here. I've talked to a lot of people about a lot of things. One of the things that has stuck with me, is that there are always more Jedi on the way up, then they'll PvP when their template is done. No one talks about getting their Rifleman done to PvP, or their stacker. It's always about how many Jedi are on their way up.

Maybe the GCW would still be dead if there were no Jedi. I suppose we'll never know. And I wasn't here when the server first came up, so I can't really speak to that. Although, I feel like people would be more likely to PvP on normal combat toons if there wasn't the threat of an unkillable super-class that will slaughter them in 10 seconds running around all over the place.

I mean, I have a full template Jedi. I'm good at it. I'd still give it up if it helped fix PvP on this server.

It has also never been quite the same as when we had that Jedi vs Jedi battle in Theed a while back. Whether it was people taking breaks for the summer or just upset they got steamrolled so easily any pvp we have encountered since then has been either been nonexistent or just plain disappointing. I haven't brought my jedi out for the purpose of PVPing since then and really only put in a couple hours here and there when I do use it (gotta throw off the hunters by keeping odd hours).

[davej30]

This has gone slighly off topic for bh/fs balance but its kinda valid.
IMO i would look for other ways for get some PvP going rather then bully people into it,as a suggestion drop a couple of non turreted bases of either faction and try and work with some opposite faction members to try and get a few things going.
Might not work but better to explore some options,i would happly grind some faction up to get a combat toon repeatedly killed over and over again in the name of fun (im not being sarcastic here).

A large amount that come here want to stick there noses in the jedi trough and wont come out until they have grinded one out,thats one of the major things you have to fight.
Standing around overt waiting for something to happen is not going to appeal to someone who is desperately trying with all there lil heart to obtain jedi is going to make one iota of difference to them.
Its your sandbox,try and find a way to make that horse drink the water.

[Cynar]

You guys can keep this endless circle-jerk going but Jedi being too powerful has nothing to do with the server being broken. Look at every server out there. Pvp sucks because the pvp crowd is just a small portion of what plays this game on every server, a 13 year old game that counts on people to create their amusement. Stop blaming Awakening because of "insert excuse here". We provide the environment with our set of variables, it's up to the player to make it work. You don't like the settings, I will say it.....GTFO.

OTHERWISE.....QUIT BEING TITTYBABIES!!

[QuorTek]

You guys can keep this endless circle-jerk going but Jedi being too powerful has nothing to do with the server being broken. Look at every server out there. Pvp sucks because the pvp crowd is just a small portion of what plays this game on every server, a 13 year old game that counts on people to create their amusement. Stop blaming Awakening because of "insert excuse here". We provide the environment with our set of variables, it's up to the player to make it work. You don't like the settings, I will say it.....GTFO.

OTHERWISE.....QUIT BEING TITTYBABIES!!

pre-CU is not even designed for any kind of fast paced PvP either it is more 'turn based' in a figure of speech, mostly due to the buff system... even in live it usually just was the same usual players going at it and many many more in big events made by players.... the casual PvP is very little is a fact.. today and even back then, you got to give people some slack instead of the name calling, whatever happened to being polite.

Keep in mind that people are still trying to get an undeveloped game back into business, which pre-cu was and no further progress seem to be at hand when it is done.

If to blame anything blame Sony Online Entertainment.

[Sevvy]

You don't like the settings, I will say it.....GTFO.

We get it. We know. You guys don't have to remind us of this every time we voice our opinion on something. Holy shit.

[Formidable]

You don't like the settings, I will say it.....GTFO.

We get it. We know. You guys don't have to remind us of this every time we voice our opinion on something. Holy shit.

Apparently he does because it keeps happening. It's not the "opinion" it's the subtle attempts at manipulation that cause that. Happens just about anytime people start making Jedi suggestions that revolve around pvp.

[2sproductions]

I just dont understand why people think Jedi are this unstoppable force. A good melee stacker can stand 1v4 against jedi for awhile ( i've seen it ) Jedi isn't broken and neither is BH. There are plently of builds that can ruin a jedi for sure. Melee stacker with CM, BH, Melee stacker period, Hybrid melee stacker pure defense. There's alot to choose from. Its all about how we play it, the game is the way it is, it's not going to change because afew people complain about it. This isn't WoW, this is a hard mode server and I love it here. I agree with our CSR's. ( thank you CSR's and BigEd for all you guys do )

[StepoKedur]

Hi Narrk just want to get this right in my head what you propose matey.

With 24 points committed to FS, jedi will be weaker.

1. Adjust bh's bonus ability to negate saber block to 10 percent. At xx44 sabers, jedi normally blocks 60 but will be reduced to 50 percent. Master light saber normally blocks 85 but against a mbh it is 75 percent.

Oh a lot of jedi will have to rethink their skillboxes. Fully agree some will be weaker for it by chosing cookie cutter templates that are strong at the moment. You are however proposing BHs reduce sabre block when the FS comes in? Am I right there?

2. Increase trap duration back to 10 seconds.

Mbh verses a master light saber while trapped statistcally will block 2 to 3 attacks. Not killer from starting at full health but certainly hurts. Now with two BH's, it gets a little dicey, 4 to 6 attacks combined get through stastically. There is a delay between throwing a trap and the attack, it's more like 8 attacks than 10 if firing at the speed cap. So stastically more on the low end of 2 hits in trapped time frame per bounty hunter.

On this one you propose longer trap times.

On a side note, love to see a snare trap that reduces jedi movement. 15 or 20 second snare with a 15 or 20 second cool down.

Narrk

...and this you propose a snare (actually I wouldn't mind seeing a snare in other profs too! A grenade used by anyone that acta as a bola (spelling?) where cord wraps around the legs like those Argentinian cowboys use could be fun.

However, I am right in thinking you envision the jedi to be weaker after the FS, therefore to 'balance' things you want to boost BH skills up?