Balancing jedi vs. BH after FS.

[Celt]

I think any adjustments need to wait until after we see templated toons finished with the village. We cannot get a good idea of balance and what needs to be adjusted until the village is implemented and we see how it shakes out.

As for a snare trap, I am all for it. Shorten to immunity timer on it so it can be thrown more frequently than the AMTs and only apply a snare, allowing the rest of the jedi abilities to be utilized.

[tnick]

You don't like the settings, I will say it.....GTFO.

We get it. We know. You guys don't have to remind us of this every time we voice our opinion on something. Holy shit.

Apparently he does because it keeps happening. It's not the "opinion" it's the subtle attempts at manipulation that cause that. Happens just about anytime people start making Jedi suggestions that revolve around pvp.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but there are places on the forums where you guys are asking for input and when we give it we are basically told to f#@k off. There are a lot of people that play here and like it and are just concerned on the direction of pvp here. I get that this is completely sandbox MMO and pvp is what the players make it, but the players have to want to make it in the first place and that can't/wont happen if they feel the characters they play aren't good enough for pvp.

[Sevvy]

You don't like the settings, I will say it.....GTFO.

We get it. We know. You guys don't have to remind us of this every time we voice our opinion on something. Holy shit.

Apparently he does because it keeps happening. It's not the "opinion" it's the subtle attempts at manipulation that cause that. Happens just about anytime people start making Jedi suggestions that revolve around pvp.

Lololol k. And who or what am I trying to manipulate, exactly?

Actually, don't answer that. I don't care.

I just dont understand why people think Jedi are this unstoppable force. A good melee stacker can stand 1v4 against jedi for awhile ( i've seen it ) Jedi isn't broken and neither is BH. There are plently of builds that can ruin a jedi for sure. Melee stacker with CM, BH, Melee stacker period, Hybrid melee stacker pure defense. There's alot to choose from. Its all about how we play it, the game is the way it is, it's not going to change because afew people complain about it. This isn't WoW, this is a hard mode server and I love it here. I agree with our CSR's. ( thank you CSR's and BigEd for all you guys do )

Says the Jedi. Show me a melee stacker on this server that can stand 1v1 against Jedi, let alone 1v4. And it's not just about tanking a Jedi. The biggest issue, is that no one but a BH can touch a Jedi. I've used a 900 max damage hammer against a Jedi and done nothing. I've used a 500 damage stun baton against a jedi and done nothing. I've been a full template Jedi for 2 months or so, and I've been killed once. By 3 BHs in the duration of a trap. All the other BH fights, never been killed. All the base takedowns, the turret asshattery, the random Theed/Cnet PvP... nothing. Yawn. It's stupid.

But whatever. If people like it, they like it. I'm just giving my opinion. I'm not trying to "manipulate" anyone or start a revolution. But I've been PvPing for the last 20 years, and I'm telling you, Jedi are OP as hell.

[Xiphos]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but there are places on the forums where you guys are asking for input and when we give it we are basically told to f#@k off.

Without going through and spending a bunch of time looking through posts, I'm going to guess those posts told us to f#@k off first, or that the server sucked, or that we have no clue what we're doing, or something along those lines. In my time here at least, it's pretty rare for staff to be the aggressor when addressing issues.

Most of the time it's not what players say that irritates staff but rather how they say it. We don't ask for players to sugar coat issues, but we do ask that they respect that we waste free time to support their leisure activities.

We have some long term goals regarding changes to jedi. Some of those reflect the exact topics covered here and were identified over the last few months. However, those are not the top of the priority list right now. We hear your concerns. We agree with some of your concerns. It will be addressed in time. Now f#@k off.

(Joking aside, this is a thread about jedi changes post-Village. It's hung onto that topic by a thread and gives insight into players experiences, and that's useful. Let's veer it back that way, please, before someone says something stupid enough or off-topic enough to warrant a padlock.)

[RemusStorm]

Sevvy wrote:

And it's not just about tanking a Jedi. The biggest issue, is that no one but a BH can touch a Jedi. I've used a 900 max damage hammer against a Jedi and done nothing. I've used a 500 damage stun baton against a jedi and done nothing.

This is my issue. This is the exact reason people don't want to play anything other than MBH or Jedi.

Jedi already has the best healing in the game(one of the major things that made jedi Alpha in live), now you've added 60% damage reduction to robes.


On topic, maybe if jedi took a bit more damage then Melee BHs would come back into the frame also.

[QuorTek]

I agree, get rid of the entire Alpha Class thing was one of the reasons for the CU and NGE... or make Jedi a vanity class with no alpha over it...

But again it is not me who is the developer... but keeping the childish ways of Alpha class even veterans should be able to see it is not viable and it never has worked and not in any other MMO either.

Drown the alpha class concept while there still is only a few Jedi around... = lesser people that get pissed off.

[RemusStorm]

Don't have to destroy the Alpha concept for jedi, but instead of just smacking 60% damage reduction on robes and saying, BAM alpha class! Look at something different?

What made Jedi Alpha in precu was the healing and damage output, but then you also had to be mindful and smart on force usuage etc. And knowing what melee had the best damage/dot weps haha. There was a huge difference between a bad jedi and a very good jedi, I'm yet to see much difference on Awakening.

For Alpha to work best it has to be, yes hard to obtain/grind but also hard to master and be great at, a higher "skill cap" than other Professions.

With the 24 less skill points jedi will have to be more mindful of force usuage and the right template etc. But i think it will still be easy to play, and not have a very high skill cap.

It's the same for MBH really, not much difference in a noob holding a 1300 LLC spamming fast blast and traps and a good BH doing the same. Be nice to see some other viable templates and interesting gameplay??

Sorry it's a but jumbled up, it's late here and im typing on my mobile phone haha.

[jasonh]

There was a huge difference between a bad jedi and a very good jedi [on Live], I'm yet to see much difference on Awakening...t's the same for MBH really, not much difference in a noob holding a 1300 LLC spamming fast blast and traps and a good BH doing the same.

I couldn't disagree with a statement much more than I do with these two. I am not a huge GCW PvPer so didn't care to add much to that side of the argument, but I do BH a good bit (when I get drips and drabs to play). The only way that either of these statements are true is if you are always in a gank squad.

I am all for more viable BH templates and I'd love to see more viable jedi templates than the 3-4 that existed in this era in Live.

[2sproductions]

Sevvy says: Says the Jedi. Show me a melee stacker on this server that can stand 1v1 against Jedi, let alone 1v4. And it's not just about tanking a Jedi. The biggest issue, is that no one but a BH can touch a Jedi. I've used a 900 max damage hammer against a Jedi and done nothing. I've used a 500 damage stun baton against a jedi and done nothing. I've been a full template Jedi for 2 months or so, and I've been killed once. By 3 BHs in the duration of a trap. All the other BH fights, never been killed. All the base takedowns, the turret asshattery, the random Theed/Cnet PvP... nothing. Yawn. It's stupid.

But whatever. If people like it, they like it. I'm just giving my opinion. I'm not trying to "manipulate" anyone or start a revolution. But I've been PvPing for the last 20 years, and I'm telling you, Jedi are OP as hell.

Sevvy you have a full temp jedi, you helped FEAR take down imp bases alot actually. You should know BlackJack can tank jedi i've seen it already during the fight of Nar Khanji. Also you are wrong, there are builds in the game ( not just BH ) who can touch a jedi. Remember you trying to fight a jedi with melee why? try CM or mando. You know because a jedi cant heal burns? lol its not about whats OP. PVP is all about tactic and gameplay. If you dont know how to drain a jedi of force or make him run, then you shouldn't be complaining considering you have a full temp jedi. This entire bickering over BH vs Jedi is pointless lol. Once the village is live jedi lose 24 skill points which means the duel mastery's almost go out the window, unless you dont want FR2 or your heals. Nothing can be balanced until after the village is live. Also remember to beat a jedi doesn't always mean to kill one. This is where tactic comes in to play. If you can make a jedi heal or clear states non stop then they run out of force which takes them out of the fight awhile since they have to channel. Again there are more ways to win in PVP then to just kill a jedi.

[lassic]

I have been reading this from the beginning. The only thing I think I can add to the conversation is..... MOAR COWBELL!

Moo!

[skyhunter11]

Wow!

First off, I wish to apologize to all the devs for posting suggestions concerning jedi verses BH. This turned into off topic heated complaints about galactic civil war pvp and very few back on forths on suggestions on the original topic.

To get back on topic. I have another idea. Put saber block back to 85 percent for master lightsaber. When a bounty hunter attacks, every blocked attack increases there saber block bypass modifier by 1 percent. Every successful attack reduces it by 1 percent. Saber block bypass would max out at 25 percent. From the jedi's point of view, they start out at 85 percent and over time it reduces 60 based on the random blocks and non blocks.

So whether it's 1 BH, 2 BH, or more, they all start at zero bypass and each BH is hitting the jedi at their respective saber block bypass modifier on that jedi. Jedi generally isn't killed at the start unless bounty hunter uses a something like a bomb droid and gets lucky on a high blast damage roll.

Narrk

[skyhunter11]

Another alternative to the LLC/Fast Blast mayhem is the speed equation change I mentioned in a suggestion from last week.
It would hinder the BH's ability a little bit more than it is currently undergoing. As well as the mention balance to classes.

It would make the FS combat speed boxes more useful as well.

Forget all the ideas I posted, fixing the speed cap equation would be easier and beneficial to all weapon types. I wouldn't wait for FS. I some how slipped reading your post earlier.

Narrk

[skyhunter11]

Speed cap issue is a difficult one to figure out to recode.

Post FS bounty hunter easier coding for balance against weakened jedi:

Fast blast - should be a fast blast of firepower as the name implies. Reduce the special weapon delay to 1. Reduce accuracy bonus to zero. Bounty hunters will have a tougher time hitting with fast blast. Reduce damage of fast blast by 20 percent. Fast Blast should be a quick full range attack at the expense of accuracy and less damage compared to Lightning single/cone 2 attacks.

Light Lightning single 2 - Increase accuracy 25 percent. Can only be used in short range 32 meters which i beleive is current so no changes there. BHs vulnerable to jedi at this range. Increased accuracy helps BH land this attack against defensive jedi but not too high where it can not be missed.

Tweak bounty hunters ability to bypass saber block to allow a small increased chance to block a ranged attack. I have no idea what it is now, but increase the chance a jedi can block an attack from a bounty hunter by 10 percent current model. Example if the the jedi can only block 50 percent, increase it to 55 percent.

So small changes, nothing drastic or way over board. Gives some of the other unused lightning cannon specials a leg up. Often dream about a improved combat system but easy to forget that the coding is difficult and devs are working for free so I would not wish to burden them with anything crazy.

Narrk

[bubblegum8965]

Actually the speedcap is an easy issue to recode, if you look at my thread in this same fourm section I show it literally is changing one 0 to a 5 in the current code. But I digress.

I agree fastblast should be a fast and likely to miss ability. reducing the delay to 1 doesnt make sense however it should be at least 1.5, all specials should be slower than a base attack modifier.
There shouldnt be an accuracy advantage to any BH abilities, isn't that the point of wanting BHs to be MBH and not BH-(3blahlbahlblah insert template).
Reducing the damage would also aid, but I think the accuracy is the biggest issue atm since from what I am getting BHs can hit with the ability way more often than other BHer abilities hence its over use.

[JohnFromSteam]

Says the Jedi. Show me a melee stacker on this server that can stand 1v1 against Jedi, let alone 1v4. And it's not just about tanking a Jedi. The biggest issue, is that no one but a BH can touch a Jedi. I've used a 900 max damage hammer against a Jedi and done nothing. I've used a 500 damage stun baton against a jedi and done nothing. I've been a full template Jedi for 2 months or so, and I've been killed once. By 3 BHs in the duration of a trap. All the other BH fights, never been killed. All the base takedowns, the turret asshattery, the random Theed/Cnet PvP... nothing. Yawn. It's stupid.

But whatever. If people like it, they like it. I'm just giving my opinion. I'm not trying to "manipulate" anyone or start a revolution. But I've been PvPing for the last 20 years, and I'm telling you, Jedi are OP as hell.

Jedi are supposed to be OP. It takes a good while to even get one to FS, then once the village is in it'll take a bit to Padawan, then you have the full grind. If you want to take down an alpha class you have to have the numbers, the top gear, or the top players, it shouldn't be as easy as you want it to be (play on bloodfin, you will enjoy that more considering Jedi isn't alpha over there compared to ours). At least good def stackers (Wreck-it, couple of others too) can stand toe to toe with Jedi, CMs can mess up Jedi easily with poisons if they have someone to keep the Jedi occupied, and BHs are the ones meant to take Jedi on, it's in their job description. On the plus side, there are lots of Jedi with little to no PvP experience or with shitty templates that get demolished out there, so not all Jedi are equally powerful.

[JohnFromSteam]

Don't have to destroy the Alpha concept for jedi, but instead of just smacking 60% damage reduction on robes and saying, BAM alpha class! Look at something different?

What made Jedi Alpha in precu was the healing and damage output, but then you also had to be mindful and smart on force usuage etc. And knowing what melee had the best damage/dot weps haha. There was a huge difference between a bad jedi and a very good jedi, I'm yet to see much difference on Awakening.

For Alpha to work best it has to be, yes hard to obtain/grind but also hard to master and be great at, a higher "skill cap" than other Professions.

With the 24 less skill points jedi will have to be more mindful of force usuage and the right template etc. But i think it will still be easy to play, and not have a very high skill cap.

It's the same for MBH really, not much difference in a noob holding a 1300 LLC spamming fast blast and traps and a good BH doing the same. Be nice to see some other viable templates and interesting gameplay??

Sorry it's a but jumbled up, it's late here and im typing on my mobile phone haha.

In my opinion, you are wrong about the skills of the people PvPing on Awakening. Look at xman and Packers compared to someone like me, we all have the same template (at least xman does) and very close to having the same sabers (I'm not taped though), and they can take down 3v1s and possibly 4v1s but I simply cannot. There is so much that I've yet to learn and master in PvP but I know for a fact that there IS a skill difference in almost every Jedi/BH that I've seen, some are definitely better than others. Narrk and Tsavo are one of the top BH's that I've seen and personally, I respect those guys for fighting pretty damn well on the hunts on me in the past, they are for sure the top BH's (among others) on the server.

It isn't apparent at first, but once you truly get to know the fundamentals of PvP and are truly interested in it for a reason like Jedi or BH or anything else, you can see it is fairly deep, even in skill. I'm still trying to learn more and improve my skill through either failures or victories and so are a lot of others, it just takes practice to become better at fighting. /endrant

[Drakathos]

From experience I can say that as it is right now if I am prepared and two good BHrs come for me it can go either way, but mostly I lose I just dont have the defences to counter the amount of damage they can dish out but this is my choise, I choose to be a Master Healer becouse I mostly enjoy the support roles in PvE if I wanted a more viable alternative against multible BH I would have defender.