Alpha class Problems

[StepoKedur]

The problem that a lot of people understandable have though is jedi v jedi, mLS v mDef in a lot of cases.

However if you have an mDef mLS v a no Def mLS they both have the same LS damage (theoretically) and the same LS defence (80% LS 'armour'). Some of this is from the robes of course - without robes they would have 55% LS 'armour'.

They key to these fights as always is being able to debuff the enemy. This has the benefit of higher damage for the attacker and less DPS through state removal (a lot better if the opponent is mHealer of course).

This is where mixed templates come in handy.


It is also why powers needs that little boost in DPS (the casting is very slow for a lot of attacks at tier 3) along with specialised targetting attacks, such as choke being mind damage, mindBlast being mind damage and forceThrow being a mix of all three. Not necessarilly for jedi v jedi but for anything else really!

All boosted slightly, less casting time and less force use (but still higher than an LS attack - although some could say not much more, as the force is used heavilly to guild the lightsabre in a fight if one looks to canon and the old expanded universe, or 'Legends' series.

This would make powers a viable alternative to LS AND keep them a glass cannon, as the devs have so often said they want for powers. Examples of the low DPS in powers currently are (damage may be slightly diffferent on Awakening):

MindBlast1: Tier 1, casting time 4 seconds. Random pool hit. Damage 750-1000 (say 875). DPS 219. FC around 70.
MindBlast2: Tier 3, casting time 4 seconds. Random pool hit. Damage 1125-1500 (say 1312.5). DPS 328. FC around 160.

ForceThrow1: Tier 1, casting time 4 seconds. Random pool hit. Damage 375-500 (say 437.5). DPS 109. FC quite low.
ForceThrow2: Tier 3, casting time 4 seconds. Random pool hit. Damage 750-1000 (say 875). DPS 219. FC 56.

Even without any mitigation from force shield or PSGs these are still very low at the top end.

Anyone got to hand the DPS of a good tier 3 attack from brawler and marksman, and the same for pistoleer and BH for a comparison please? Thanks:)

[StepoKedur]

The real problem is there is no true middle ground. When the BH attacks 1 v 1 the odds are more than 90% in the Jedi's favor. When its 2 v 1 its 70/30 in either direction depending on the gear and templates of the hunters and the Jedi. When its 3 v 1 its 90% in the hunters' favor. There is no true 50/50 which is I think what we all want.

I would say that 90% is if the jedi is mDef, possibly mLS too for the 85% block. Currently mDef mLS cannot fit too much of anything else in the templates. If they add 4xx4 heal they cannot fit channel. If they get channel they cannot get remove states.

I wouldn't bunch jedi in as one 'build'. I absolutely agree that the numbers look pretty close to what you have said though mate if you are talking about say an mDef mLS.

[davej30]

Two quick disclamiers before i start.

1.I dont care if i have a good fight or not personally my mandate is to kill jedi and collect the money,if its a good fight i will enjoy it but equally i have no qualms about bashing a baby seal over the head,i cannot make jedi extinct but i can control them.

2.Prelate im going to quote you a few times nothing personal against, you its just that you have voiced ( so far) what other wont say,thanks for posting!

- jedi being high end profession, grind required needs be rewarded.

From my viewpoint ive put a lot of work into the jedi hunting business,its well known i made a jedi myself to assist the process.I have also collected the BH armour which i can tell you as just as difficult if not more so then the prowler section of the knight trials.My latest weapon that me and fishface acquired cost us 71 million in tissues to produce 2 LLC's.The previous LLC's where around 15- 25 million each and ive had several in my way to the top in most cases overpriced and underpowered.
Other weapons in my arsenal have been grinded for or paid for at heavy cost to myself.
A premium pearl on the other hand can be gained for as little as a couple of million.
One of the things that irritated me on publish 8 was the doubling of investigation xp,to me it cheapened my profession and the only people in my opinion that benefited was profession grinders using it towards unlocking.If i had my way id reduce investigation rates to well below what they where pre pub 8.
I would also like to add at the beginning of my career my success rate was virtually non-existant but any players from around that time will testify i still gave it a go.

The FB still bugged and working on all weps : as Dunka wrote...lower Robe Toughness WHEN AND IF FB is limited to pistols only as it should be

To my knowledge melee weapons cannot use fastblast so its not bugged.The LLC can still do the same amount of damage without FB (vanillia swgemu) using another special.
If FB was removed i would show you a template that is just as bad but without MBH ,i tried to prove this to steppo on TC for pub 8 but TC was refreshed before i had time to finish the template.The fight although would be longer but the result would be the same and i would also be able to go toe to toe vs a MDEF which i currently cannot do.

It really is a case of be careful for what you wish for;
How i see it here is that most people have either forgotten what it is like to be hunted or never have been.
Back on live a TKM BH could decimate Jedi and that cannot be done here due to the robe toughness (which cannot be removed).
I know this as i was one on live,never had a jedi on live i didnt want one,with that mindset firmly in place my first crack at it here was a MFencer invest3 BH i soon figured out even with a really good mindfire dot i still could not do the job i could do on live.

I understand that mBH has certain hidden bonuses to get a little more damage.
I think mBH also have some innate LS armour too...

We dont stepo, on either points there is nothing hidden in the template.
However there is something "Hidden" deep down in a bunker somewhere and there is the abiltiy to hit better which it available to any profession.


The Swiss Army Knife Jedi

Common mindset thats prevalent is that Jedi is a "can do" profession and the concept of a soft "paper,scissors,rock" does not exist.
As previously mentioned TKMs where the bane of jedi in live more so a defense stacker.
Now currently it is ranged.DPS exchanged for little to no defenses (expect psg).
You can build a jedi that can stand up against the current BH meta,i run one and with the exception of what i call top tier BHs i dont have extreme difficulty despatching 1-2 hunters against me.
However this template is weak vs other Jedi builds,for example steppo's Jedi can make mincemeat out of mine (but then i am not skilled in jedi v jedi combat nor likely to be but i believe his template>over mine).
You cant have it all! just as Hunters know a tkm bh can do nothing but hold and state a jedi,not all Jedi variation should be able to withstand BH attacks although they can be strong vs other opponents.

And FYI everyone the current level of PSGs has made me pause my quest for Mandalorian armour.

[prelate]

@ Celt : i don't mind the groups as long as all in group attacking can be attacked. And that goes for BOTH groups. So if you are unlucky enough to get a target and he is grouped up..well there u will have the wanted PVP u all claim to miss atm. (claim is the magic word here as all u write and state is not for getting more people playing and having fun but for 1 or 2 bh able to claim server)
If the jedi is solo, he is doomed if he fights so if he can run...he should run and hide. Also something u guys need stop crying about. (need snares to root, break FR, ....) It's a given ability that costs the jedi a lot of points. If he chooses to go there..respect his build and try catch him next time.

The vis should indeed be reset a bit as it's too low atm (as i see it) .
Also when u see 5-8 jedi on but only 1-2 on terms...hehe u think you are the only 1 with a brain (*cough* sorry ) who can play smart ? Because a jedi is on, doesn't mean he has to be termed. (now i've done it...jedi should be PvP minded and if not willing to play that way ...no need to create a jedi ....blah blah blah) U can always go after some NPC marks solo. Think there is np in raising the level of them so u can have some DJM and so to kill if no marks on.

The remark regarding melee stackers on live...i was there from start till end. If u find that 1 melee stacker BH should be able to solo 1 Tier 9 jedi, well, it was wrong then (was also corrected on live) and it's wrong now. The time investment a player does to get there should get a reward.


Bottom line : i find that loads of u start complaining way too fast. Play the game, enjoy what u get, go around certaine setups build into the server (or try to) but don't cry when u are not the only 1 to go around. Cherrish the moments u can fight a jedi , even with him getting help from a healer, or enhancer.....that way u have a fight and have FUN.
(btw the just place all what u say in perspective : Varel had a fight with 3 BH and 1 SL , he had help from a doc healing him and a 2 cm even then we couldn't keep him alive. And stil u dare claim something is wrong ? Damn right there is : the jedi never should have been able to die)
BUT - and ask all who were there - we had FUN. (perhaps a word u need to allocate in that tactic of yours)

Prelate

PS

"The problem is MBH is not actually competitive with a Knight" : see post of Cynar. Stop asking and wishing this. Never was never will. In here is your main problem. U start with the wish to get to this point. Drop the wish and rethink.
"Then you claim groups are why Jedi dont play...its circular logic." : nope only because the group can't be attacked in full and stop complaining about jedi who use healers and enhancers since they use same tactic as u do + most important read Varel fight part of my reply....

[Celt]

Soloing Rank 9 was never fixed in pre cu. I did it on the last day before the CU. Ed was there, I believe Cynar was, Creston was. TKM was never "fixed". It was always the counter to Jedi. Did you play pre-cu? Did you play a Jedi or a BH? Sure doesnt seem like it.

As for crying...well isnt that what this thread was intended for? To get the issues out in the open and away from threads meant for other purposes?

I can wish for whatever I want. So can you. maybe you should consider your own advice about not wishing and not crying. Your posts seem remarkably similar to mine.

[Madroxtheninja]

oh snap! i say lets get prelate on his Jedi and Celt on his BH and see whos really top in this thread!!!!!


FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIG...
k nvm

[StepoKedur]

Oh Mad, I had a pertinent question for you but it's gone out my mind now matey. Relevant to the previous discussions (your jedi side). It will come back to me. Maybe you will post it by accident!

[Madroxtheninja]

doubtful XD but the trap thing, some traps work some dont, the dart does not work, Latch and I tested it yesterday abit

thats all im saying on what does and doesnt work though

[StepoKedur]

I would like to see the total freeze in traps removed and replaced with enhanced melee and ranged or other* debuffs and such though. Maybe a longer reach snare with a faster casting time for FR3 (as a counter). The FR3ers can still escape if needed in the immunity time.

[Madroxtheninja]

I would like to see the total freeze in traps removed and replaced with enhanced melee and ranged or other* debuffs and such though. Maybe a longer reach snare with a faster casting time for FR3 (as a counter). The FR3ers can still escape if needed in the immunity time.

I hate to mention another server cause i really couldnt stand it there but bloodfin did 1 thing right with FR, they made (either warning or threatening shot, i cant remember which) break force run.. then the jedi would have to re use the ability at force cost.. just like the BH would have to use a attack queue to keep them from bolting so he couldnt DPS... it was a fair trade imo

[Royan]

I think that system is more reasonable versus damage alone breaking FR. I assume that ability broke FR on actually hitting, so you'd have to sacrifice a bit of DPS uptime to prevent Jedi from running away. If my assumption is correct, I'd also be okay with it imposing some cooldown on FR being recast - 15s maybe?

[bobaphat]

Fastblast was never designed to bypass saber block and be usable with an LLC.
Traps are a broken mechanic.

/thread

[Madroxtheninja]

I think that system is more reasonable versus damage alone breaking FR. I assume that ability broke FR on actually hitting, so you'd have to sacrifice a bit of DPS uptime to prevent Jedi from running away. If my assumption is correct, I'd also be okay with it imposing some cooldown on FR being recast - 15s maybe?

yea when it hit it broke FR and they could immediately reapply if wanted, but it cost force again, do this over and over and they have no force, but the BH cant DPS so its a trade

[StepoKedur]

Fastblast was never designed to bypass saber block and be usable with an LLC.
Traps are a broken mechanic.

/thread

True. It was even fixed on TC a little pre pub 8 here.

[Madroxtheninja]

it doesnt completely bypass saber block, i can show you combat logs on top of logs where my jedi with no defenses still blocks it left and right

[StepoKedur]

Oh! Bypassing sabre block was one of the little something-somethings that mBH had hidden away right, rather than an innate tiny bit LS armour rating...right?

[Madroxtheninja]

Oh! Bypassing sabre block was one of the little something-somethings that mBH had hidden away right, rather than an innate tiny bit LS armour rating...right?

i havent noticed ANYTHING hidden in MBH dude

[Royan]

Stepo should have the info I figured out for publish 8 somewhere. I don't recall the exact numbers but there are inherit bonuses against Jedi in both MBH and normal ranged master professions

[StepoKedur]

Cheers Roy. I think PSGs are at 47% LS protection at the moment (ish) so I used that number for those too.

I remember we discussed those hidden numbers a while back as well for mBH etc.

[kunral]

I would personally like to see (if things are to stay as they are) jedi identity removed from the terms. That way BH's cannot organize an auto win if the jedi stands his ground (3v1).

This would mean a jedi could face 1 bounty hunter or could face 3 or more etc but the chances are that if multiple BH's have the same mark the fight will be staggered as other BH's turn up. There may be occasions where the Jedi has to fight a group from the start.

This in my view gives more variance to the BH vs Jedi battles.