Alpha class Problems

[davej30]

Oh! Bypassing sabre block was one of the little something-somethings that mBH had hidden away right, rather than an innate tiny bit LS armour rating...right?

Stepo lad there is nothing innate quit this obsession you have been told enough lol.
There has been several modifiers to the fastblast ability,
Not a "Bypass" persay but saberblock is lowered but not significantly or it if was it is not now.
Post p8 there is now a Accuracy debuff in it as far as i can make out.

Fastblast was never designed to bypass saber block and be usable with an LLC.
Traps are a broken mechanic.

/thread

It is here on this BH server,by design whether an accident or not.

[Celt]

I would personally like to see (if things are to stay as they are) jedi identity removed from the terms. That way BH's cannot organize an auto win if the jedi stands his ground (3v1).

This would mean a jedi could face 1 bounty hunter or could face 3 or more etc but the chances are that if multiple BH's have the same mark the fight will be staggered as other BH's turn up. There may be occasions where the Jedi has to fight a group from the start.

This in my view gives more variance to the BH vs Jedi battles.

You would end almost all bounty hunting with this change. On a server where group hunting is a requirement, removing names would neuter all but 1 or 2 hunters. Jedi are too powerful here for this to be viable. Only way most could hunt alone is to look for afk or unbuffed Jedi and the chances of finding one of those in a public space are few and far between.

[Cynar]

When the FRS comes in you will also see Jedi start to dabble in other templates. Robes aren't being touched until after 9 and it's not going to be huge toughness changes. You guys get hung up on numbers too much. Other class modifiers, foods, drinks, & drugs make those too difficult to be accurate especially on 15 year old game that's still in a buggy alpha state.

Anyone ever heard of playing and having fun? I remember once upon a time when I played swg and didn't worry about xyz=999. I managed to have fun without all of the math!

[StepoKedur]

You forgot to carry the 42 there Cynar in your equation

For me maths is a building block. An area where I can start from, know where I am.

THEN I have fun

[evilryu]

just buff up and collect your split of the 358k/360k.

This is where the disconnect is. "Jedi can easily be killed with 2 or 3 people. BH is too OP, throw Jedi a bone".

Nah, I am not buying it. There are maybe 2 hunters on this server who can maintain a winning record hunting solo and that is because they have SB or 2nd SB weapons. Sure, If you catch Jedi afk, or unbuffed or something you can win solo, but let's not bullshit each other. 1 v 1 Jedi is the alpha on this server. The problem is we, as a class, recognize that and hunt in groups to counter that. We are organized enough that groups are the norm and not the exception. This does not mean BH is OP and too easy. I hunt on three different servers and this is the most difficult server to hunt as a solo BH, by far.

As for the assertion there are no jedi playing, I believe you are simply incorrect. I see a constant 4-8 Jedi online during US peak hours, yet there may be 1 or 2 on the terms, if that. This isn't because BH is op, this is because visibility is broke.

I wrote "split" to imply group kill. As I have already explained in my post - the solo part on relates to certain builds - heavy powers / non-def hybrids; full temp and buffed. Obviously attempting to solo any double masters (except powers imo) or the defx4x4 hybrid is a tall order for most.

Do dual-boxing technically count as solo'ing? Two of your members recently have been regularly dispatching Jedi with their pocket TKM/CM and SL toons - a feat to be admired to be honest.

I agree with your assessment about the lack of a middle ground hence the need to hunt in teams.

Majority of the time, I'll hunt in a two man team. I normally hunt with one other guy and we've bagged and tagged dozens of Jedi of all templates over a three month period since we first started BH. I've had some good kills with one particular <BH> member. I can't remember the last time my BH died. My point is, I have picked up an LLC, I've played with it for a while and you're clearly overstating how weak the BH class is or how alpha these Jedi are. But what do I know, I'm just a noob trash BH compared to you professionals, right?

Anyways I digress, some suggestions/comments on the topic of the BH/Jedi mini game. I'm going from the angle of increasing participation.

Jedi DPS: The other night, I'm sat on my rifle/cm and two guildies decide to have some fun (be put in a box) and we thought we'd try stacking healers to see what would happen. All I could think was WTB MORE JEDI DPS. Doesn't matter if we kept them alive for 10 mins longer before they eventually run out of force - MLS with pvp sabers does pitiful damage to toons with 64%psg + steak/wafers. As a hunter I've face-tanked Jedi for at least 5 minutes at a time just swapping PSGs and chewing on wafers, busting the odd heal with the halva and stim Es while my buddy is pounding with the LLC - totally no fear of the Jedi.

BH are currently way too tanky, I think bringing PSGs back in line to pre-pub8 (or thereabout effectiveness) can offer Jedi a small DPS boost without devling into the quagmire of FB and Robes mechanics. They will still remain wank for PVE.

Group TEF: I like this idea a lot, can allow for mass brawls / PVP action where non Jedi/BH can participate. BH can go 8 deep but that's nothing new, they still retaining first strike advantage (BH only get bounty IF they or another hunter who has the same mission DB their mark?). Jedi can't complain about party members not being able to help.

Friend list: BH alts spying on Jedi alts and vice versa - someone suggested reciprocity when adding friends, this will deter Jedi from hiding when they know certain hunters are online.

BH Missions: Someone suggested Jedi are not named - I would advanced this to say that they are pseudonymised, uniquely every time a Jedi is termed but all BH will see the same new generated alias. This allows hunters to still team up but makes it slightly more difficult for them in that they won't know who or what they're dealing with (at least possibly until the probe goes out) - currently with most named Jedi, you can instantly determine their spec, their guild, safe house location etc. Imagine if your mark turns out to be your main toon's guildie?

Force-run: No one likes runners; I like the idea of an interrupt ability which forces Jedi to re-activate FR. Additionally I thought about reducing the damage reduction on FR2/3 from 95% to something lower like 80% (finger in the air number)- the thinking behind this is that Jedi might be embolden to run away from BH less and more at them offensively. Obviously Awakening BH would love nothing better than Jedi running AT them.

Vis: Painfully low at the moment. Needs to be back to what it was before pub8.

[Celt]

Do dual-boxing technically count as solo'ing? Two of your members recently have been regularly dispatching Jedi with their pocket TKM/CM and SL toons - a feat to be admired to be honest.

No I wouldn't. I do applaud the ingenuity as well. I think any BH who rolls here who hasn't at least considered the practice is behind the curve. I personally do not do it, more out of laziness than choice.

If we could get a balance ratio of 2 bounty hunters to 1 Jedi Knight, assuming gear and templates were optimal across the board I think we would have a reasonable middle ground. I thought I heard at one point the goal was like 2.5 or 3 to 1 BH to Jedi somewhere before, but I definitely wouldnt take that as gospel.


Terry can attest, you shouldnt underestimate my laziness.

[davej30]

Group TEF: I like this idea a lot, can allow for mass brawls / PVP action where non Jedi/BH can participate. BH can go 8 deep but that's nothing new, they still retaining first strike advantage (BH only get bounty IF they or another hunter who has the same mission DB their mark?). Jedi can't complain about party members not being able to help.

I've said this time and time again Gtef is a shitshow,its an excuse for Jedi to to go around in 10 man groups without fear of any recrimination.The bounty never gets claimed and lots of people die all except the mark.All that happens is who can raise the biggest group of people together has a better chance of winning.Funny that as know one would bother to go to those lengths for the GCW,In most cases especially in my guild the amount of hunters is scaled to the mark.

1 Hunter for a baby seal/paddy/poor BH temp
2 Hunters for Full temp/Average player
3 Hunters+ for Full temp/healers/Jedi buddies/Skilled player
As heartless as i am i pity the poor 78k Jedi who has 5 BH rock up on them because of suspected Gtef.

The onus is not on the BH/Jedi to provide PvP its the players who wont PvP unless they have a Jedi or wont PvP because they are too busy grinding a Jedi.

You are down the pub/bar with your friends but one of them has robbed the bank and the police come into the bar to arrest them,you may accidentally slide a bar stool in front of their feet but you wont punch the police officer in the face

[prelate]

Trying to stay on the positive here because breaking down is esy, building up is a whole other story . I'm going to quote 3 post of the many (and i must say i really like some idea's of Terrance, Madrox , Celt as i do from Stevo, Evil, ..)




1) Terrance : - I've said this time and time again Gtef is a shitshow,its an excuse for Jedi to to go around in 10 man groups without fear of any recrimination.The bounty never gets claimed and lots of people die all except the mark.All that happens is who can raise the biggest group of people together has a better chance of winning
- 1.I dont care if i have a good fight or not personally my mandate is to kill jedi and collect the money

U can run into such groups, as can the solo jedi get hit by the 5 man BH groups running round now. Your statement u opened with i find a lillte bit disturbing and u already have my reply on that. (also add in here the quote i will put in from Cynar) : SWG is a game, all here are trying to enjoy it. If your ego is writing out checks so its needed to change game mechanics to cover them...... i can only feel sorry for u.

Most important quote of all the post i've read :

Cynar (must say LOVE this one)

Anyone ever heard of playing and having fun?


*bow*


Best reply ever



Prelate

[Cynar]

If we could only start over! Cdefs and bone armor, lengthy shitty battles in Theed & Cnet would be the order of the day.

[kithsyn]

I really appreciate the intention of this original post though it appears that the thread is off track a bit. Let me post something to try and get us back on track.

Having hunted jedi (solo, 90% of the time) MBH for a number of months before unlocking, I would like to give two different perspectives - both "point of views" . This might provide insight as I know others who have already posted here can do the same as they play both roles.

From a BH Point of view:
When I created my first toon on Awakening a little less than a year ago, I knew that I wanted to collect on bounties, both npc and Jedi. However, Jedi was something I was really interested in as I did this back on LIVE years ago. There are very few thrills in game that compare to the thrill of the hunt, the planning, the strategy and preparation involved, the adrenaline rush as you close the gap, it's really a unique experience. I was told early on that Jedi are the alpha class on this server, and I expected as much and began to prepare for that. Hunting Jedi solo, I realized quickly that in order to have a real chance 1 vs. 1 I would need to be a MBH and utilize traps and the other innate bonuses that It brings. That really is a neat advantage that BHs have on this server, and I believe that it goes along with the Star Wars lore of BHs, and I don't ever want traps to go away for MBHs.

So I grinded $ to get a decent LLC, experimented with a couple of templates, made more $ to get a few tapes, and started hunting Jedi. I was surprised how easy those that weren't full template yet were to kill solo. Sometimes just a few shots even against a fully buffed Padawan would end his current activity. However, I think this is to be expected. Not good enough to get the Master skills and not that great with half of a stacker template or whatever they possess at the time. The full template Jedi were a much different story. I killed a few, but was killed more often than I won (again, solo). Then I decided I need to be the best I could be: max out on tapes, talk to other seasoned BHs about hunting Jedi & possible templates, grab bone armor with slots for AAs, etc. And see how the hunts went from there. I noticed a significant difference. I got a few more kills of full templates under my belt and found that a few that I had almost no chance of killing were Master Defender templates unless I caught them off guard in some way. I was surprised at my improvement and was happy that I was killing more though I'd say that I still died more than I won in 1 vs. 1 matchups. I would say that my LLC was above average (paid 3 MIL from a vendor) but not exceptional or that I spent 150 million credits on an LLC or DOT weapon like a flamer as some BHs do. So I had the thought that I should farm krayts to get an exceptional tissue to possibly craft an exceptional LLC. And then I unlocked Jedi...more on that in a second.

Summary of my BH experience:
I love traps. They add an element of strategy and fun to the game and should not be removed.
BHs are formidable 1 vs. 1 at killing jedi. Before I became a Jedi, I thought that BHs were....if Jedi were Alpha1, then BHs (at least vs. a Jedi) were Alpha2. I liked this setup. More on my perspective of BHs since becoming a Jedi.
I love that MBHs get special bonuses vs. Jedi. I think this should continue to be the case. Don't make these perks available for other non-Master templates.
Padawans are much weaker than I expected. Full templates are considerably better and Defenders are very tough.
I would consider myself having only slightly above average gear. I would consider myself above average in intellect and strategy. So take that all with a grain of salt, I guess.

Coming soon, my Jedi point of view.

[Madroxtheninja]

Since Csr's have posted and watching the thread, what about Jedi who use friends' unguilded BHs to hold their mission/clear them, can we get a official response to this, cause there's SS's of it being openly discussed by guilty parties

[Cynar]

They are in danger of having their force sensitive characters reset to pre-village status along with some other possible penalties added on top.

[Madroxtheninja]

Awesome ty hopefully they see this and stop

[evilryu]

Hard to feel sorry for Jedi if they do stuff like that!

[Woolystyle]

Since Csr's have posted and watching the thread, what about Jedi who use friends' unguilded BHs to hold their mission/clear them, can we get a official response to this, cause there's SS's of it being openly discussed by guilty parties

Shame!!
Thanks for keeping this in private, that s clearly not to be part of the discussion. That kind of things can be addressed via tickets.

For these who think that jedi is an alpha class profession, well you probably did not play, or face, a jedi guardian 4444 (I did both in live) as this was the perfect definition of an alpha class profession. Hopefully, in those dark times permadeath and saber tef used to work properly.

Having said that, here is my wish list for Cynar Clause:

- for BH:
. Fast blast and spray shot should only be available for master pistoleer and carbineer.
. Increase the pistol/carbine damages
. Remove LS resistance to PSG or lower it to permit the almighty alpha class to be able to deliver a decent amount of damages. (In my opinion, only the full BH and mandalorian armor suits should have LS resists - 50% resist for instance.).
. Introduce a BH ranking system, in which each rank would provide accuracy/damages or defenses bonuses (that will never happen but I always dreamt this to be implemented when the FRS went live). This would encourage BHrs to hunt jedis and jedis to fight BHrs to get FRS or BHRS points.
. Traps: increase the cooldown between each use and enable the Jedi to heal himself or attack his/her opponents.
. Joining the opposite faction should be mandatory to engage a Jedi Knight (this is going the be hot - give me all your love)
. BH tef should be applied to pocket Sl or CM (I consider that using a pocket SL toon is playing with the rules as it grants SL bonuses to the BHrs without being attackable - quite unfair?). Even Lucas proved us that group tef existed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oezZTXzXs90



- for Jedi:
. Downgrade the jedi toughness/Increase saber block
. Introduce saber/robe/title tef - (what did you say!!!)
. Increase the Vis range (easy to say when you get a jedi knight but most of the old jedis did not grind their jedis with a 32 m vis range...)
. Flawless pearls/crystals FC should be between -6/7 and -9
. Knights and ranked jedis should be perma termed (this would prevent certain jedis from staying in their houses and invite BHrs for tea time)
. FR3 should have no force cost because I love delivering pizzas without spending force points.

/hi5

Wooly

[lassic]

. Joining the opposite faction should be mandatory to engage a Jedi Knight (this is going the be hot - give me all your love)

This I agree with. It would actually bring about the saberTef/BHtef by default.

The other part I think should be in there, is the mandatory minimum for the pearl tunes. People spend a TON of money on them and get a shit tune. A flawless should never tune below -7.

There are lots of little tweaks that can be done. Is there a way to limit the number of BH that can take a mission depending on the combat level of the target? Like, only one BH could grab a paddy mission, whereas 5 could get a MDef mission.

[Madroxtheninja]

At work wooly so quotes don't work so well, but yea not saying who is doing it, there's tickets with SS's submitted weeks ago but we never got a response, so since Cynar was reading this thought I would toss a Hail Mary and get his input, hoping the guilty parties/ guild see's it and stops it cause it's not right

[StepoKedur]

When you scroll up you can see my robe toughness calculations - page two. From that a happy medium might be able to be calculated.

Remember robe toughness is in two flavours, LSt and Jt.

Jt is from defender skills and robes.
LSt is from lightsabre skills and robes.

Jt affects ranged defence.
Lt directly affects Lightsabre defence.
Combined toughness is melee.

If you look at my comments (page two here) you will see Jt produces the lowest of the three defence types.
If anything were to be reduced I would say the LSt at LS master.

Currently mLS box adds +15 LSt

If it were knocked to +10 it would reduce both the melee and LS defences down a little, maybe enough.

If you want a calculation I can work it out.


With traps, take away the freeze (please!) but either decrease the cast time of the trap, increase the range or a little of both to counter runners. That's part of the purpose of the trap after all!

...I would also like the tweaks to powers too, as the DPS (my page three post) suggest. For a glass cannon, well we have the glass but no cannon, and we are not a viable alternative to LS either.

Decrease the force cost and up the DPS and damage type (mind hits for mindBlast and choke, all three HAM for forceThrow) and that would go a long way to fixing powers.

Remember the dev team had some key words. Glass cannon and viable alternative to LS.

I also could see the logic of FastBlast being only pistol AND carbine, as you could be (what's the phrase, I'm a Brit and we don't really do guns) manually cocking the hammer? This would of course have a slight drop in accuracy as the action of moving the hammer would be moving the pistol/carbine as doing so.

(Also Santa can we have a slightly increased force KD range too? )

[davej30]

I didnt make this post for people to keep asking for Gtef (excuse for 10man jedi teams).
Abiet tongue in cheek to begin with,it was to address Jedi concerns.
I've noticed a HUGE undercurrent of player bitterness presently and i wanted to give them a platform to air there grievances and to educate them if they do not understand some concepts.
For example,the server they came to and what being a Jedi actually requires.

If you go into a shop that only sells (branded signage on entrance) coca cola don't be upset when they they refuse your demand for pepsi cola,its a coca cola shop not a pepsi store.

I'm certainly not crying about anything,I care little if there are less Jedi playing because that is rubbish.There are plenty of people grinding Jedi out in the wild and at the village.While this server exists someone somewhere will always be foolish enough to pick up the saber,whether they are worthy of it is another matter.

I'm giving YOU the Jedi community a chance to actually talk about any problems and if you are wrong myself or others will correct you.
If your point has merit and is not ludicrous by all means lets discuss it.
And maybe just maybe a Dev might listen and some compromise might be reached and something may be adjusted or implemented or it might not but at least you gave it a shot and expressed your self's

[StepoKedur]

OK,

If the mLS LSt was reduced from 15 this is what the difference would be:

Now:

These are all without foods or drinks or anything, based on knight robes (which have a marginal increase at best)...
If the damage is a ranged attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 113 damage. 75% armour.
If the damage is a melee attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 23 damage. 95% armour.
If the damage is a LS attack then the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 90 damage. 80% armour.

With a reduction at mLS of -5 LSt:

These are all without foods or drinks or anything, based on knight robes (which have a marginal increase at best)...
If the damage is a ranged attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 113 damage. 75% armour.
If the damage is a melee attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 28 damage. 94% armour.
If the damage is a LS attack then the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 113 damage. 75% armour.

Which is a little better for jedi v jedi and actually not that much better for melee on jedi.

Take away the Jt from defender...say the +8 at master...

If the damage is a ranged attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 149 damage. 67% armour.
If the damage is a melee attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 30 damage. 93% armour.
If the damage is a LS attack then the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 90 damage. 80% armour.

So, as the mDef mLS are the toughest around, and they have a lot of other defences going on, if the Jt +8 was removed from mDef and -5 was removed from mLS, you would get this:

If the damage is a ranged attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 149 damage. 67% armour.
If the damage is a melee attack the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 37 damage. 91.8% armour.
If the damage is a LS attack then the 450 hit affects the mDef mLS for 113 damage. 75% armour.

Note the 90+ defences may not necessarilly BE that as capping may be in place.
Also, although mLS would only be +10 more LSt than a 4xx4 LS (currently +15) mLS would have speed cap and 4.5 damage mutliplier on the best attacks. mDef would still be very tanky and also still have AI of course.

This lets those with other temps not be affected by this reduction (taking it from robes in my view changes all jedi, further weakening those without much defender if any, and does not get to the root of the issue at hand, the extra good defences an mLS mDef enjoys.

How does that look? Reduce mLS to having +10 LST rather than +15 LSt, and reduce mDef from +8 to 0 Jt (they only go from Jt 45 to Jt 37 this way. The numbers above hopefully make sense