Alpha class Problems

[StepoKedur]

Terry, were you thinking of Rola Cola perchance?

[davej30]

Terry, were you thinking of Rola Cola perchance?

Tia maria and Guinness tastes like rola cola lol

[Madroxtheninja]

I didnt make this post for people to keep asking for Gtef (excuse for 10man jedi teams).
Abiet tongue in cheek to begin with,it was to address Jedi concerns.
I've noticed a HUGE undercurrent of player bitterness presently and i wanted to give them a platform to air there grievances and to educate them if they do not understand some concepts.
For example,the server they came to and what being a Jedi actually requires.

If you go into a shop that only sells (branded signage on entrance) coca cola don't be upset when they they refuse your demand for pepsi cola,its a coca cola shop not a pepsi store.

I'm certainly not crying about anything,I care little if there are less Jedi playing because that is rubbish.There are plenty of people grinding Jedi out in the wild and at the village.While this server exists someone somewhere will always be foolish enough to pick up the saber,whether they are worthy of it is another matter.

I'm giving YOU the Jedi community a chance to actually talk about any problems and if you are wrong myself or others will correct you.
If your point has merit and is not ludicrous by all means lets discuss it.
And maybe just maybe a Dev might listen and some compromise might be reached and something may be adjusted or implemented or it might not but at least you gave it a shot and expressed your self's

I just wanna hear from BadASSJedi again... I like the cut of his jib! I bet him and I could be friends XD

[kithsyn]

My Jedi Point of View:
So far I've noticed that several BHs on this server can take me down 1 vs. 1 (though I've won a few times as well and am improving as I learn my playstyle so I'm not making a final conclusion about this), and I'm realizing that my template (involving Mhealer) has a lot to do with this as I feel very squishy. I knew that Mdef is the meta to do the best vs. Bounty Hunters, and while that was somewhat important to me it was not the most important thing to me (i.e. guild support/PVE, group pvp, healing, other IG activities). However, I was surprised that I die fairly regularly to BHs one on one. I've survived once in a 2 vs. 1 matchup and die every time vs. 3 BHs. An Alpha class should have more viability in pvp even if it's not the FOTM (FRS?). Restore unto them the alpha class, not just one alpha discipline.

Here are my suggestions for improving Jedi:
-Remove the LS resists in PSGs.
-Improve the viability of other templates (Mhealer, Mpowers, Menhancer) in pvp vs. BHs.
-Fix the flawless/premium pearl system. I've only had 2 out of 9 flawless pearls that I haven't deleted (which deleting for me is anything worse than -5 FC). From premiums, I get about 1/6 that are tunes worth keeping. Interesting that Selects, I get about 1/4 that are -6 FC which is supposed to be their max so a "perfect tune".
-Penalize jedi somehow for house sitting for hours and hours on end. I don't know how one would best do this. Maybe you could reward jedi for not doing this would be a better way. Just thinking out loud but I don't have a good solution on that.
-Make the pairing dual box character attackable (i.e. SL for example). Bh gets all the benefits of this, but there are no consequences.

Those are my initial thoughts. I'm sure I'll have others as we go through.

[Cynar]

I was a big fan of certain versions of pre-pub 9 Jedi.

Loved the old trees, all that was missing was working apprentice points and a frs system.

A) Did not like Jedi wearing armor past initiate boxes
B) Was only a fan of the build-up perma-death system. Die so many times vs level with a once week counter reset was the best iteration of that setup. The threat of character wipe was there as another checks & balances system, but if you played smart it would almost never happen.
C) Kinetic lightsabers were stupid
D) saber/force use tef was smart
E) force run with no sort of damage reduction was stupid, i like our tweaks better

[Kelec]

I've avoid this topic on purpose, its not constructive and generally just results in people being mad about other peoples opinions. Fact is, people leave when gameplay isn't fun and I can tell you the meta isn't fun for non defender jedi. It's all well and good that BHs think they're in a good state but objectively the environment around them say it isn't. Many of people have left here because of this interaction and ironically Awakening has built a reputation on other servers as being a BH favored server (could name 3 different places I've seen this).

So you understand my option of the meta; BH >= MLS/Defender > Healer = Enhancer > > > Merchant > Powers

Traps - decent in theory; a nightmare in application. I have stood on this soapbox since these things have been released. They should be completely removed. Nothing about the game play they bring is immersive or fun. I don't agree BH should be void of CC, but this is not the answer. Madrox touched on something some other servers do with warning shot to strip force run, the same thing can be done skills in BH tree to add slows to a target. Introduce mechanics players can do something with, not mechanics they have to wait out.

For example - Bob the BH pulls Steve the Jedi Knights mission. Bob just had a new Krayt EE3 made and he's ready to test it out. Bob finds Steve and opens up on him with Underhand Shot (knocking him down for 3 seconds / 30 second CD) and pours on the damage with Fast Blast, stunned Steve heals himself and stands to give chase. While Bob is kiting Steve around, he uses Eye Shot (with his EE3) and now Steve is slowed by 50% for 5 seconds (20 second cooldown). Steve heals himself again, the blind state is cleared by the slow is not. Steve uses force run to catch up with Bob, but Bob fires off Warning shot (20 second CD) to strip his force run.

At no point in this small sample is Steve or Bob sitting there thinking, "I hate this stupid mechanic, RAWWRR!!!". Game play is fluid and its more likely (assuming a decent combat balance) the more skilled player will win. It brings plays and counter plays into the mix. I would hope most players can appreciate gameplay like this.

I've written this post 5 or 6 times now deleted it all and started over, I'm tried. I'll sum it up like this.

Reduce Damage - scale us back to .7 of current power (maybe more)
Reduce defense - stat stacking is out of control (JvJ & LS resist armor/psg)
Remove Defender - spread JT across MLS/MH/Enh/Power || 45 points from defender ( 10 to 12 JT per master box?)
Remove Traps Stuns - Maybe make +range damage or +melee damage traps a thing (nothing crazy 10 to 20% max)
Add BH Skills - Slowing/ KD / Unhealable states (see above)
Clone BH tree for Melee - Introduce a new elite tree for Melee hunter (following the same skill concepts from above)
Make gameplay enjoyable for both parties (really important for keeping jedi around. Its a double whammy when you lose XP and you had no fun doing it, after a while you just stop)

Edit - Please for the love of all things Star Wars, fixing tuning - as suggested by several others premium/flawless should always have decent tune values. -6 to -9 (averaging -7) and -7 to -9 (averaging -8).

Flame on.

[StepoKedur]

Good post there mate. Liking a lot of the others too. I think you and I are on a similar page.

In theory glow juice traps (x1xx scout) are supposed to help BHs hit the mark with ranged.
Wire mesh trap at nScout is supposed to make running slower (snare) and make melee hits better.
xx3x scout has the glow wire trap. This is supposed to make it easier to hit with both melee and ranged.

I've said before somewhere I would like traps to be more useful. No freeze. I like your ideas for weapons doing this too, but didn't add it in my posts just for ease. However it may be easier this way. I personally don't know.

Narrk has a good thread on traps too, fairly recent, in the thread 'Fast Blast and LLC' from 9/4/17 (that's April NOT September for those not using date numbers in a logical manner! ). He agrees with this sentiment totally, and I doubt he is the only one.

[evilryu]

-Remove the LS resists in PSGs.

U wot m8.

[Cynar]

Some of the made proposals are simple tweaks, however most require a complete re-write of multiple professions and other systems. That's a fantasy that will never occur here, nor on most servers. Harsh reality of life, ask for what you know is potentially obtainable here.

[davej30]

-Remove the LS resists in PSGs.

U wot m8.

LOL im sure he meant roll back to pre pub 8 Psgs,or maybe he didnt

[Kelec]

Some of the made proposals are simple tweaks, however most require a complete re-write of multiple professions and other systems. That's a fantasy that will never occur here, nor on most servers. Harsh reality of life, ask for what you know is potentially obtainable here.

With respect, balance as it relates to Jedi and BH is beyond simple tweaks.

[Madroxtheninja]

Some of the made proposals are simple tweaks, however most require a complete re-write of multiple professions and other systems. That's a fantasy that will never occur here, nor on most servers. Harsh reality of life, ask for what you know is potentially obtainable here.

I don't know how to code unfortunately, so as an example my thought on warning shot removing force run so they had to activate, would that be simple tweak or a giant undertaking?

[davej30]

Some of the made proposals are simple tweaks, however most require a complete re-write of multiple professions and other systems. That's a fantasy that will never occur here, nor on most servers. Harsh reality of life, ask for what you know is potentially obtainable here.

With respect, balance as it relates to Jedi and BH is beyond simple tweaks.

In your opinion would you think that the removal of traps and fb would bring balance even if bh could still kill jedi without them?
If there is no problem to dying vs a bh i would assume its the supposed quality of the fights that doesn't sit right?

[Cynar]

Some of the made proposals are simple tweaks, however most require a complete re-write of multiple professions and other systems. That's a fantasy that will never occur here, nor on most servers. Harsh reality of life, ask for what you know is potentially obtainable here.

With respect, balance as it relates to Jedi and BH is beyond simple tweaks.

I would say well duh, but I am more than aware of what it would take. I've talked to about 7 of 8 sets of
Devs over many years and both the Jedi and bounty hunter systems need to be re-written from the base up. Like I said it would require re-writes and other system changes as well. Sadly we are only here to publish our version of swgemu's server. It taken them almost 12 years and many people to reproduce what Sony & company did back years ago.

There are other devs out there that are taking emus base and trying to build more. They do make their code available, however what most find is it is daunting to try and rollback even the most simple of scenarios or publish period styles. We found that out early as well and have had devs come & go after they realize what amount of time even the most smallest of real changes take.

Your best hope is that someone out there like EA or someone they scoop up writes a new open world Star Wars game with this much depth and involvement as swg has.

[kithsyn]

-Remove the LS resists in PSGs.

U wot m8.

LOL im sure he meant roll back to pre pub 8 Psgs,or maybe he didnt

Yes correct @ Terrance. Sorry that wasn't clear.

[Kelec]

In your opinion would you think that the removal of traps and fb would bring balance even if bh could still kill jedi without them?
If there is no problem to dying vs a bh i would assume its the supposed quality of the fights that doesn't sit right?

Short answer, without changes to jedi as well it would completely flip the meta.

Long Answer
The other skills don't have the kick (by design currently) to deal with jedi tanks as they stand. Even a hybrid would easily handle hunters without the buffs to FB and trap. There are some hunters who would still do alright, mostly with legendary weapons or perhaps dot weapons but in general hunters would struggle. Hunters still need tools to manage the distance vs the target. It could be argued that the tank PSG + BH armor might be enough but I'd rather those be scaled back slightly and utility be added to there kit for kiting. Things that the jedi can have a chance to play around, as my example above showed.
There is also an inherent design flaw with jedi tank many don't understand (not you, I know you know how this works), saber block is actually where most of our mitigation comes from. JT is great but SB is literally the bread and butter of the class when it comes to ranged tanking. Sadly its RNG mechanic, and that in of it self presents a balance problem. Removal doesn't feel like an option because we'd literally get competely decimated but a overall reduction to say 30 or 40% down from 80% I think would change a lot. This is why I feel defender needs to be absorbed into the other trees as well. Those minor stats will come necessary so that the incoming damage doesn't go right back into the "alpha the jedi" category. Keep in mind, all of this assumed FB/Trap Changes.

Regarding FB, and all the skills in BH tree, I'd like to see them all have a use. I know other BH would welcome this (narrk).

There are two schools of thinking when it comes to hunting right now.
Completely out gun the target, blasting them straight to the cloner (IE Powers/Healer)
Wearing them down (Defender)
(Enhancer falls under both, as generally if you don't alpha him he's going to kite for a while)

Personally I'd like to see all the fights fall under "wear them down". That's just me. I'll be honest, I had high hopes for Powers balance changes and got stuck in a bad template, on paper I'm set up a nuker, in application I do less damage than a pikeman.

Dying vs a BH as it stands currently cost us 1 - 3 hours of grinding depending on the template. While that's not a lot in the short it stacks up. Assuming we're still on track for FRS, as the system currently stand expect jedi to become ghosts to hunters. FRS xp is going to be a nightmare. Honestly, not looking forward to this. Loosing to a BH because I managed my force wrong and ran out is one thing, having a full force bar and exploding before I have a chance to even attempt a combo is extremely frustrating. I think most sensible jedi can agree, sometime your just going to get beat, its a game we all make mistake. It shouldn't be so heavily rigged, before it even starts.

[Kelec]

Some of the made proposals are simple tweaks, however most require a complete re-write of multiple professions and other systems. That's a fantasy that will never occur here, nor on most servers. Harsh reality of life, ask for what you know is potentially obtainable here.

With respect, balance as it relates to Jedi and BH is beyond simple tweaks.

I would say well duh, but I am more than aware of what it would take. I've talked to about 7 of 8 sets of
Devs over many years and both the Jedi and bounty hunter systems need to be re-written from the base up. Like I said it would require re-writes and other system changes as well. Sadly we are only here to publish our version of swgemu's server. It taken them almost 12 years and many people to reproduce what Sony & company did back years ago.

There are other devs out there that are taking emus base and trying to build more. They do make their code available, however what most find is it is daunting to try and rollback even the most simple of scenarios or publish period styles. We found that out early as well and have had devs come & go after they realize what amount of time even the most smallest of real changes take.

Your best hope is that someone out there like EA or someone they scoop up writes a new open world Star Wars game with this much depth and involvement as swg has.

I completely understand this. I'm literally studying C++ and C# right now. As soon as I know enough to be useful, i'll gladly helps with this.

[skyhunter11]

I am no coder, so I don't know what's involved to make this small change. I would remove the freeze effect of the adhesive mesh trap. It's a root only, jedi can still heal and use other powers. Bump the root effect back to 10 seconds with a 20 second cooldown timer.

Traps are awesome, just needs adjusted for post publish 8 jedi that are immensely weaker. I played it on both sides.

I know the pain of being destroyed in 7 seconds with lots of force left and can't do anything about it. Whats even more painful is logging on with bounty hunter and no jedi on terms or even logged on for that matter.

Narrk

[StepoKedur]

At the moment Narrk, are traps doing anything apart from freeze? Madrox tells me they barely do anything but he is being rather tight lipped about it (aren't ya Maddy!)

Are they decreasing melee or ranged defences at all?

The remove freeze as you know is something we agree on 100% as you know.

[prelate]

Kithsyn, like the post u made

There is so much that could be done, we want to be done, we dream that should be done.
I dream of the Alpha Class Jedi once again and only a minor BH class to counter them >:D haha sorry couldn't resist.


Prelate