If Awakening revamped Jedi

[skyhunter11]

I read it and like the future Cynar!

Narrk

[Madroxtheninja]

I want to make sure I’m understanding this right, SABER TEF does that mean if they have a saber equipped they can openly be attacked by ANYONE AT ANYTIME



Please tell me that’s coming in!!! I will love you forever and give you my 2nd born child Cynar!

[Royan]

Those look like promising changes

[Cynar]

Like I said I won’t elaborate on anything else at this time. Still up to the dev team, most things will happen pub9, others will be patches after stability is good. The best thing people can do is show up for testing when it’s annoucned and give detailed feedback. There’s a whole list of stuff non Publish related I’ve proposed and asked to be changed. We’ll see what can be done.

[davej30]

There’s a whole list of stuff non Publish related I’ve proposed and asked to be changed. We’ll see what can be done.

Binary liquid drop rate increase is on that list?
Asking on behalf of interested parties *cough*

[kithsyn]

I also added Group Tef.

I am interested in these changes you mention, Cynar! Thanks for sharing more.

Narrk and Commodore bring up great points.

[Suga]

Hello!
I'm not here to stir the pot, or create ire. But, I must interject.

As someone who runs a grinding city on Tat, starter planet, I know quite a bit about typical newbies coming to Awakening. The fact is, a vast majority of people who come here actually ARE here for the primary purpose of grinding a Jedi. It is very often mentioned in the first few paragraphs of conversation that I have with new players. The attempt to be a little snide about this is counter-productive. It simply Is, based on experience with new players.

The current system where a so-called "baby seal" can end up in debt for months of pool-noodle grinding is detrimental to the survival of the server, as a great deal of them just quit. We can pass judgment about how "stupid" they are about grinding, or hint at secret methods to prevent this occurrence from being so painful, and postulate about whether they should be here, or how it's not supposed to be easy, but that does nothing to address the reality of this dynamic. I don't have, and don't want to have a Jedi... been there, done that. So, I don't have a personal dog in this fight. However, I do care about this server, and would like to see it thrive. I believe the system is poorly balanced, on a risk vs reward basis, and it is costing us players, donors.

[davej30]

"jedi should be special and rare,but not mine"

Anyone remember this often used quote?

The Jedi question always brings inherent problems as far as i am concerned.

I never met a pre pub 9 jedi on live but i met plenty of watered down versions post pub,and the jedi here are stronger then there post 9 counterparts.
But what i do recall very well is the destruction of my server on live when everything got thrown in the bin because of the hologrind.
The economy skyrocketed,Grind packs became a thing,Solo groups emerged and PvP started to die out,who cared about defending a base when there was jedi to grind.
People inevitably gravitated towards this alpha class with little regard for there peers and what PvP was left was jedi battles and fight clubbing when the frs came in.
You end up with the "Haves" and " Have nots" with the latter resenting the former and scrabbling to become them.

I have never made it a secret of my distain for the jedi profession and the problems it always brings,they will never be powerful enough and everyone will want one.
I personally like the fact that someone will roll a Rifleman or a Swordsman because they fare better then jedi in PvE.
Or that people want to be a politician,a trader and a creature handler.
Still if the community wishes to withold donations because jedi is too tough to obtain and maintain so be it,not my decision,im just voicing my opinion.

However if the community and the Devs decide to make Jedi more powerful and easy to obtain i would be curious to see if we follow the same path as some of the "other places" which have become ghost towns (you think pop is dropping here? have a look around elsewhere).
You know the ones which post exactly how to have a jedi or have a jedi quest line,what exactly do these players do when they have quickly obtained there mecca?
Seems to me they get bored and quit.

[Suga]

The debate about whether they should exist, how hard to get, blah blah does not do anything to address the server bleed borne from a lack of balance of the risk/reward dynamic between jedi and bh.

Sure, it's pretty fun to expound upon it. For some, it is even fun to hate, especially if it justifies actions.

The fact remains that the number of people who decide to stick around and roll a PvE toon after they've been griefed into horrible xp debt, dashing their Jedi ambitions, is very low compared to the people who just walk away from Awakening.

I also did not mention anything about making it easier to become Jedi (except for making the difficulty something other than massive xp debt and mind-numbing grinding- there are much more eloquent solutions, imo.) I did not mention anything about making it faster. It can take years -IF It's enjoyable-.

Certainly, there are challenges to even having Jedi in the game at all. But that debate, also, is academic. The challenge is how to balance game play so that people quit quitting all the time. We win nothing if we lose too many players who donate funds. We could, however, relegate Awakening to be the server where some ideological purity dictated that there are not any damned Jedi, just a couple of people who hate Jedi strolling around bitching for lack of marks.

[evilryu]

Quite a relevant remark - BH as a profession should actually be encouraging more JEDI on this server, unless they enjoy the NPC hunt, it is integral to their existence in this game. It's self defeating otherwise.

Many come to the server for the challenge to unlock. Some might stick around for longer and do other things in this expansive game, some will move on once they've got Knight - I look at the wanted List and I don't think more than a handful still play regularly. The deadly efficiency of BH on this server makes the latter much more swifter too but you can't fault their dedication to the profession for this.

[Cynar]

The debate about whether they should exist, how hard to get, blah blah does not do anything to address the server bleed borne from a lack of balance of the risk/reward dynamic between jedi and bh.

Sure, it's pretty fun to expound upon it. For some, it is even fun to hate, especially if it justifies actions.

The fact remains that the number of people who decide to stick around and roll a PvE toon after they've been griefed into horrible xp debt, dashing their Jedi ambitions, is very low compared to the people who just walk away from Awakening.

I also did not mention anything about making it easier to become Jedi (except for making the difficulty something other than massive xp debt and mind-numbing grinding- there are much more eloquent solutions, imo.) I did not mention anything about making it faster. It can take years -IF It's enjoyable-.

Certainly, there are challenges to even having Jedi in the game at all. But that debate, also, is academic. The challenge is how to balance game play so that people quit quitting all the time. We win nothing if we lose too many players who donate funds. We could, however, relegate Awakening to be the server where some ideological purity dictated that there are not any damned Jedi, just a couple of people who hate Jedi strolling around bitching for lack of marks.

Jedi is meant to be an Alpha class. While it's struggled to truly achieve that here, there has to be a time sink to achieve that, and it's not Halloween year round. We aren't going to just hand out the candy. There has to be some penalty for a class that's hunted and supposed to remain hidden. It's the whole premise during this peroid. So it's either make an xp deficit, playtime loss penalty, or perma-death. Like I mentioned earlier Star Wars isn't just about Jedi. We clearly state that this is going to be difficult to achieve here. I would rather shut the server down than to become a 6X XP or hand out Jedi like every other server does out there. If every server is the same then whats the point?

People are going to continuously quit for one reason or another. We aren't going to start a debate about that. Everyone has to realize that this game is about to turn 15 years old. It has very dated graphics, limits on what you can expand on, then there is the lack of coders willing to put in the time. I get tons of feedback from novices and experts alike. The same thing I see over and over is an unwillingness of people to contribute time to coding. That goes back to it being a 15 year old game and 20 emu servers out there now. While I appreciate the observations, unless you can contribute code or a solid idea that's easy to code then the discussion is moot. It's been beat to death time and time again. Back on topic please.

[Celt]

So I'll lob a shot across the fence here, from an extremely biased, but professional and experienced perspective.

Jedi here are much, much more powerful than any other EMU server that is live, or has been live in the past. It is a fact. In two years here I have a pretty decent win record. As an aside, nearly all of my hunts have been team hunts as hunting knights here solo is not feasible assuming both the hunter and the mark are buffed and have competitive gear and skill levels. BHs here cannot solo a knight with any expectation of regular success (with one exception who is semi retired). On others servers I have a better record hunting SOLO than I have here, with less time invested.

As for "baby seals" being griefed into leaving, thats a farce. It simply doesnt happen here anymnore. Visibility is broken. If a baby seal is termed he had to work for. Getting termed enough times to get this massive xp debt simply doesnt happen, and if it did it would take a concerted effort on the part of the jedi to do so. If you think otherwise you either 1) dont hunt and dont understand how the terms work or 2) you are talking to people who dont play their jedi anymore and their horror stories are dated and irrelevant.

Now, you are absolutely correct. I have always advocated for more Jedi. Less jedi hurts our profession, it doesnt help it. Never has. We need more Jedi, not less.

This is the hardest server to hunt on by far. If you can kill Jedi here, you can kill them anywhere. Period.

[Suga]

Celt, with all due respect, it is not a farce. A whole lot of young jedi have quit due to XP debt making the path to jedi a long, boring, unrewarding one compared to the myriad choices they have in other games. We don't even know how many people don't even try Awakening because someone tells them the reality of trying to be a Jedi. There are ways of layering difficulty and time sink other than XP loss. Visibility being broken right now does not address the rule set. But, hey, thanks for your input.

We did have an incredible, and productive chat in game last night. It produced a lot more applicable information than claiming it's an old game, give up, or musing that jedi grind should be hard so just suck it up. Those sentiments are not very valuable in the face of examining design of a pseudo-alpha class grind, imo.

One thing I do notice, a talk about jedi here seems to be hyper-populated with pontificating BH. It's peculiar.

If any staff would like to read our discussion from last night, I saved it. Some really interesting ideas.

[Cynar]

Celt, with all due respect, it is not a farce. A whole lot of young jedi have quit due to XP debt making the path to jedi a long, boring, unrewarding one compared to the myriad choices they have in other games. We don't even know how many people don't even try Awakening because someone tells them the reality of trying to be a Jedi. There are ways of layering difficulty and time sink other than XP loss. Visibility being broken right now does not address the rule set. But, hey, thanks for your input.

We did have an incredible, and productive chat in game last night. It produced a lot more applicable information than claiming it's an old game, give up, or musing that jedi grind should be hard so just suck it up. Those sentiments are not very valuable in the face of examining design of a pseudo-alpha class grind, imo.

One thing I do notice, a talk about jedi here seems to be hyper-populated with pontificating BH. It's peculiar.

If any staff would like to read our discussion from last night, I saved it. Some really interesting ideas.

You are talking about a very small percentage of people quitting for that reason. Hell more people have left the server because I’m a dickhead than have left due to difficulty of Jedi. Getting a deficit in the last 8 months would have had to do with really really bad luck or stupidity. I’ll give those people the benefit of the doubt and refer to the first choice. Compared to a year ago leveling Jedi is just a time consuming cakewalk.

What is the purpose of playing a mmo? To play a social game that interacts with other players, that entertains and kills time. Like I said the discussion about this is over. Take it to pm’s. I want to improve gameplay for this and all other classes. Making it easier for a small select crowd is not our desire here. Like I said, lots of choices out there that are easy. I will close the server down before becoming a clone of every other emu. Come up with good ideas for improving gameplay, not kowtowing to a small portion of the player base. They would find some other reason to get bored and leave anyway. This is jus the thing to cry about today.

And gentlemen when I say back on subject this time, I mean it.

[kithsyn]

I'll try to get us back on topic...at least somewhat.

Given the original poll, would you consider doing something like different disciplines under the Jedi umbrella? Or are you just trying to get a sense of the community and their gameplay as Jedi (in addition to suggestions about prior LIVE publishes)? This idea of disciplines sounds very interesting, but I'm not as knowledgeable about some of those categories so can't give much feedback about that...

[Deezee32]

Almost at 1000 days here , I must say awakening being a harder mode than other servers , has kept me entertained still after all this time , other servers with high xp give no long term enjoyment or anything to work for I have got bored with after 2 weeks .

During this time I have seen a lot of changes and improvements , even remember the days when the server reset every 2 hours .

You can’t please everyone , someone is always gonna moan and whine , some people just don’t have the spare time to invest , people come and go , with 30 + mixable professions , economy , resource collecting ,city building , decorating a pad , base busting , role play , loot hoarding , money making , pvp , bounty hunting and Jedi dreams , The list goes on . There is a huge amount of things to do on your own with a friend or small group .

The server has done very well not to wipe after all this time , the uptime has been outstanding , like others have said “if I knew how to code I’d help “, but haven’t a clue .

Keep up the good work , it’s much appreciated .

[bobaphat]

So I'll lob a shot across the fence here, from an extremely biased, but professional and experienced perspective.

Jedi here are much, much more powerful than any other EMU server that is live, or has been live in the past. It is a fact.

That's not true, I can list 3 servers off the top of my head but I won't until given permission. Having said that,next to Bask, Awakening most likely has the weakest Jedi due to the increased pve strength and ultra buffed BH.

Now I bring this up in an attempt to keep it on topic. Current Jedi balance doesn't really matter, what's more important is that they are DIFFERENT. Right now, Jedi here is extremely vanilla: no FRS, broken powers (across the board issue, not server specific), low xp, high xp loss, bh system, yada yada - the same as most places. There is no reason to play a Jedi here when all you're doing is the same as other servers but adding a higher likelihood of getting gangraped by BH. Now granted that may attract some people buuuuut it's gonna make more say "F that server".

Adding a sabertef would be a great step in the right direction to differentiate Awakening, which is what's needed most IMO. Changes will bring people in.

[AmerineJL]

I don't really post much but here are a few random thoughts:

1) Jedi unlock is awesome because it is hard. I didn't like the other servers I tried because it lacked the pain and mystery (misery) found here. If 'live' had been like this, SWG would have been better served. Please don't make it easier to attain.

2) Jedi are THE content for BH but BH shouldn't be forced content for Jedi. The standard Jedi templates revolve around defending against BH and it shouldn't be that way. I suggest that Jedi need better inherent survivability or the XP loss needs to be toned down. Or some combo of the two. Make it easier to fight to a stalemate, not a win. Buffing BH and Jedi defenses against each other is my suggestion. Bottom line: A PVE Jedi should have a chance at survival against a BH and a PVP Jedi shouldn't automatically dominate a BH.

3) Powers should be viable and Master Sabers shouldn't be mandatory. My insane thought is that powers should be akin to commando with lightning as a great ranged AOE while sabers still rule for DPS overall at close range. Similar to a commando versus a rifleman versus a pistol with fan shot or whatever.

4) My view of Jedi is that it should have the best survivability and good but not the best DPS to promote template flexibility. What makes it worth having a Jedi is things like Force Run, Force Choke, and heals-with-DPS that are unique but not game breaking. But when you are overly focused on BH, you can't employ exotic templates that let you do Jedi-like things.

5) FRS led to fight clubs and other exploits. Server population will make FRS a challenge without creativity that accounts for the population. And 'Powers' doesn't work without FRS at the moment, if it will even work with FRS. I suggest buffing Powers and removing it from FRS. I don't have a good suggestion on how to make FRS work. I personally think it should be a straight forward grind that adds levels and minor buffs but is nothing game breaking for PVP. Just a long journey of grinding. The faction rank system was awful in live and led to base busting that was kind of senseless with the rank decay. I likely won't mess with FRS if it is done the old way and assume FRS will involve a small group skirting some form of exploitation to make progress. The path of least resistance is Jedi on Jedi PVP to rank-up in FRS that then leaves out all the non-Jedi and only harms server health. I suggest something as simple as monthly goals to level up and a months long journey up the ranks so FRS is more about time played than anything else.

[Koven]

Awakening doesn't need a total revamp of the class but a few tweaks could make a huge difference. Here's my handful of credits:

1. Jedi should remain difficult to obtain but I think there should be an adjustment to xp loss. Gaining a skill box while as a young padawan or even adjusting your template as a knight while in an xp hole should not be a seemingly insurmountable task. Cap negative xp so jedi are never further in the hole than what they need for their next skill.
2. We need some variation. MLS provides so much in the way of defense that it is almost required for survival. Distribute some of the LS toughness and saber block modifiers throughout the other LS lines and we might begin to see players get creative with builds. Remove the re-templating obstacle created by the xp hole mentioned in my first point and we could see more experimentation.
3. More variation... Jedi are supposed to be in hiding but trying to blend in with the crowd means losing the toughness provided by the robes. For jedi with squishier builds, traps + LLC fastblast + no robe = easy money for a BH. Maybe grant the toughness in the padawan and or knight skill boxes, or remove the need for it entirely. This would also allow jedi to make subtle adjustments to their skills through skill tapes.
4. Increase saber damage. Now, hear me out before the BH community tears me a new one. The catch is that saber speed should be lowered to prevent from speed capping at MLS by itself and making it more difficult (maybe impossible) to do so depending on your choice of saber. If I remember correctly, currently all sabers have a base speed of 4. This should scale across the spectrum, with one handed saber speed starting a bit faster and the double-blade a bit slower. This would force some to make a decision on whether force speed needs to be in their build and make pearls with good speed tunes more valuable.

I think most of us that play on this server tend to appreciate the fact that a bit of work needs to be put on to reach any end-game goal, especially jedi, but there should come a point when we can enjoy what we worked for and just have fun. Does that mean letting jedi run around unchecked? HELL. NO. But I do think that if a few adjustments are made that let players build a jedi to suit thier play style rather than building to survive bh encounters, then we might see more log in their jedi instead of a TKA.

[skyhunter11]

I like Cynar's idea for removing jedi from GCW and they have their own dark and light factions. Saber TEF will keep the jedi in check because they will be attackable by anyone when sporting lightsaber and powers. This keeps then in check and not running around in the open.

I am very curious about the future of traps. I am heartened that they aren't going away but will no longer be a freeze effect. Hope they still root or other traps snare.

Narrk