If Awakening revamped Jedi

[StepoKedur]

Personally I’d be ok if we lost FB, and traps got a nerf, what I’d like to see is a way to break FR, another server used to ( not sure if still do I quit that server to come here) had a marksman ability either threatening shot or warning shot I’m not sure which, would break FR, and the Jedi would have to reactivate it which costed force so if they wanted to keep running they would use more force

Would changing the cast time to be faster not do the job? Get the trap fired before the FR2/3 can run out of range?

[jonnyfurious]

If you give the bounty hunters the tools they are asking for some will abuse them and it only takes one or two bad apples to spoil a server of this size. A Jedi who is extremely careful should be able to avoid the terms until they finish their grind. A Jedi who invested the time and points into Force Run should be able to put it to use for the only thing it is good for now. You should not be able to harass them onto the terms. That is the kind of behavior that makes people quit playing.

Put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. You get home from work and want to do a buff on your Jedi. You get on and as soon as you do your name lights up on 5 BH friend lists. It just takes one to track you down and the more you increase the visibility range the fewer grinding locations are open to Jedi so in a short time the BH finds the Jedi on another toon, flies up on them, and puts them on the terms. Then the mission is picked up once, twice, three times. The Jedi has no recourse to prevent this. The Jedi's day is over. Right now you can unequip your gear and get to a safe spot to avoid the terms usually, but your day is still done. Under what most of you are suggesting the Jedi is termed instantly and would make a mad dash for a safe house or a spaceport to get to a buildable planet with a safe house. Best case scenario for the Jedi is that they make it, worst case is they get killed on the way. Sometimes the hunter offer's them a rez then another hunter kills them and they all laugh at how stupid the new Jedi is. All the guy playing the Jedi wanted to do was get a buff in on the one night he could after work that week. Now he can't play. Even if he made it to the safe house, he's done. If he tried to defend himself his visibility is through the roof and he can't play at least for a day or so. How likely is the guy playing the Jedi going to be to continue playing on this server if this happens a couple times a week? What will they say about the server when it is brought up on Reddit or Facebook? All the guy did wrong was decide to play his Jedi. It is funny that preventing a Jedi from playing is fine, but when I suggested that the bounty hunters face a similar consequence, you cried.

I hope those of you that run this server can see the other side. You can increase the difficulty and make Jedi hard without encouraging griefing and player harassment. No one wants Jedi to be easier to get or play, but it can be hard without crushing the spirits of the humans behind the characters on the screen.

[skyhunter11]

Johnnyfurious, If I am reading your long post correctly, bounty hunters shouldn't be able to find a jedi in training and term them? That's the case currently. It's extremely difficult to term a jedi. Jedi is a pvp class. You going to be attacked. I played both sides, I got two jedis and been killed plenty of times and both have negative exp. It's not hard to erase the debt, just takes time and careful avoidance of things that get you in trouble.

As for finding padawans to term. Takes luck and time consuming methodical searching of planet to find them first. By the time you spot one and get close, they are biking it away. But at least you stopped them and presented a new challenge to overcome. Just wait til the knight trials. Bounty hunters on you constantly interrupting your progression.

Narrk

[davej30]

Johnny,
I think you will find that the majority of the top tier bounty hunters all have at least one jedi on there accounts maybe more (ask packers he seems to pop up and find them all GRRR).I personally would take a credit and xp loss if i had the power of a mdef jedi or could heal my mind bar and deflect 85% of incoming ranged attacks and whatever percent against fastblast 50/60%?.
Since publish 8 on Awakening its never been easier to grind a jedi, Vis is broke that is not hearsay its a fact i also checked it at SMGEMU,i noticed this very shortly after p8 went live but could never find an answer or confirmation until recently.It should be quite rare that a jedi manages to avoid detection until full template ive only known of a few rare cases who very super vigilante.

Just incase you didnt know,my jedi was deliberately termed by other players, my locations shared across the universe and a ring of houses around my safe house with BH camped on my porch 24/7.
In no way did it break my spirit or stop me grinding my jedi long term, personally i found it fun and i did deserve it for all my perceived crimes.
The only thing that prevented me getting full template was my lazyness due to the fact i didnt really want a jedi and my heart wasnt in it.

And again i will say it for the umpteenth time BH being slightly more alpha on this server is not the problem its the players,Jedi that have never been hunted and players that have never come across a Dedicated team of hunters.
Theres a common misconception about fastblast with LLCs that the majority has if you look at the beginning of my post theres a clue to what it ACTUALLY does,ergo petition to have it removed all you like and you will still get hit like truck when you do get hit.

IMO which is generally ignored i think,i play both sides and i think the BH path although initially easier requires more time and money invested in it then the jedi profession.
There is a reason why mandalorian armour is listed under "unobtainable" in Celts files.

[jonnyfurious]

I just think the Jedi should have some options to avoid being forced to the terminals during the grind. Terry, we both know you are far from the average player. In fact, most of us that are here and on the forums daily are not typical of a lot of people who come here.

And as hardcore as the BH crew is in my experience everyone is pretty chill. I feel like we can find some common ground that punishes the dopes that run into Cnet showing off their saber and still allows the careful grinders some ability to avoid up to 20 hours of xp loss early in the grind.

[AmerineJL]

Johnny,
I think you will find that the majority of the top tier bounty hunters all have at least one jedi on there accounts maybe more (ask packers he seems to pop up and find them all GRRR).I personally would take a credit and xp loss if i had the power of a mdef jedi or could heal my mind bar and deflect 85% of incoming ranged attacks and whatever percent against fastblast 50/60%?.
Since publish 8 on Awakening its never been easier to grind a jedi, Vis is broke that is not hearsay its a fact i also checked it at SMGEMU,i noticed this very shortly after p8 went live but could never find an answer or confirmation until recently.It should be quite rare that a jedi manages to avoid detection until full template ive only known of a few rare cases who very super vigilante.

Just incase you didnt know,my jedi was deliberately termed by other players, my locations shared across the universe and a ring of houses around my safe house with BH camped on my porch 24/7.
In no way did it break my spirit or stop me grinding my jedi long term, personally i found it fun and i did deserve it for all my perceived crimes.
The only thing that prevented me getting full template was my lazyness due to the fact i didnt really want a jedi and my heart wasnt in it.

And again i will say it for the umpteenth time BH being slightly more alpha on this server is not the problem its the players,Jedi that have never been hunted and players that have never come across a Dedicated team of hunters.
Theres a common misconception about fastblast with LLCs that the majority has if you look at the beginning of my post theres a clue to what it ACTUALLY does,ergo petition to have it removed all you like and you will still get hit like truck when you do get hit.

IMO which is generally ignored i think,i play both sides and i think the BH path although initially easier requires more time and money invested in it then the jedi profession.
There is a reason why mandalorian armour is listed under "unobtainable" in Celts files.

So to clarify: you believe the emphasis of a BH is to hunt Jedi while they are grinding, as opposed to after they have full templates? I never heard that before, but it is certainly legit. Much smarter to kill noob Jedi before they have a full template.

[davej30]

I just think the Jedi should have some options to avoid being forced to the terminals during the grind. Terry, we both know you are far from the average player. In fact, most of us that are here and on the forums daily are not typical of a lot of people who come here.

And as hardcore as the BH crew is in my experience everyone is pretty chill. I feel like we can find some common ground that punishes the dopes that run into Cnet showing off their saber and still allows the careful grinders some ability to avoid up to 20 hours of xp loss early in the grind.

Im not saying your some of your arguments dont have merit,i liked your post in suggestions.
However the vis/baby jedi is currently moot you cant really be termed,we know we did final testing with players recently to deliberately term paddies.
Better for the future you may suggest a slightly lower xp loss for baby seals,but grinding jedi should still be a challenge and one should ALWAYS be looking over there shoulder.
IMO a jedi should hit the terms a minimum of a least twice during there grind, a little sting every now and again to keep you on your toes.

So to clarify: you believe the emphasis of a BH is to hunt Jedi while they are grinding, as opposed to after they have full templates? I never heard that before, but it is certainly legit. Much smarter to kill noob Jedi before they have a full template.

Every Jedi, baby seal and full temp alike,i do like to smack a baby seal and knock the sense of entitlement out of them but all in all its the same to me.

[jonnyfurious]

Better for the future you may suggest a slightly lower xp loss for baby seals,but grinding jedi should still be a challenge and one should ALWAYS be looking over there shoulder.
IMO a jedi should hit the terms a minimum of a least twice during there grind, a little sting every now and again to keep you on your toes.

I am on board with this. A careful Jedi hitting the terms a couple times during the grind gives the fear of loss while not crushing their soul. I could see XP loss that scales a little closer to costing a buff or so worth of grinding, or not letting XP fall below zero.

[davej30]

Better for the future you may suggest a slightly lower xp loss for baby seals,but grinding jedi should still be a challenge and one should ALWAYS be looking over there shoulder.
IMO a jedi should hit the terms a minimum of a least twice during there grind, a little sting every now and again to keep you on your toes.

I am on board with this. A careful Jedi hitting the terms a couple times during the grind gives the fear of loss while not crushing their soul. I could see XP loss that scales a little closer to costing a buff or so worth of grinding, or not letting XP fall below zero.

There is always the option of giving a bribe to a bounty hunter,it is a sandbox after all.
What i always find amusing is the level of pride some players have and refuse to temporally pay there way out of a situation and cry about the xp loss after they have died.
Someone that was smart and paid all the top tiers off that day,would be able to make up the amount of xp needed so they wouldnt hit negative when they do die.

[StepoKedur]

How much does a BH get per kill? Would that not be too expensive for padawans, plus a little degrading?

[AmerineJL]

So the Jedi revamp discussion has degenerated into how to make Jedi better content for BH as opposed to make the Jedi a more interesting class to play.

This is just like it used to be in live, at least.

[davej30]

plus a little degrading?

See pride issue above stepo.
You will have plenty to bride someone as a paddy,if you can afford a select pearl for your shiny saber you can afford a bribe.
The "casting couch" is also degrading but that doesnt stop people jumping on it to become a movie star.

[jonnyfurious]

So the Jedi revamp discussion has degenerated into how to make Jedi better content for BH as opposed to make the Jedi a more interesting class to play.

This is just like it used to be in live, at least.

Improving Jedi is still on the table and part of the discussion, but I am very serious about wanting everyone to stick around. When I look at the top tier hunters I see a lot of guys who have donated a ton of money to the server and who have a ton of time invested. We have to respect that and include them in the discussion. I think most of them agree with improving the PvE side of Jedi to make Jedi more relevant. However, we can't do that at the expense of the Jedi/BH balance.

[StepoKedur]

Aye it's degenerated a little out of the original brief here...

[Cynar]

The discussion should always be about improving all classes & game content, not nerfing or removing. Also it should be about making it more fun & challenging, not easy. Some players equate easy with fun. Lots of 10X xp, week to unlock, bored and gone in 3 month servers. I know a lot of creature handlers, rangers, riflemen, commando’s, TK’s and Entertainers that dream of us working as hard to make their game more fun.

[Woolystyle]

#bringbackourJediGuardians 4444,

Great news that improvements or new features for both professions are coming. You guys do a great job by sharing your feedbacks on some areas of improvement. I hope publish 9 will bring some fun to everyone and s encourage people to do pvp sessions.

Jedi: implementing the FRS, the saber tef and increasing the LS damages would be a good thing, in addition to fix the jedi vis issue (if this is possible of course) and improve the pearls and crystals tuning system. Although I think that working on your jedi weapon is one(and should stay) the most difficult part of your jedi journey, premium and flawless pearls/crystals FC reduction should be around -7, -8/9. All the ones I tuned during the last 2 months were around -1/-2 -3.

BH: Templates should be more diversified so that every BH could represent a different challenge for jedis. Indeed, instead of having the Fotm template (which is mostly MBH/novice brawler/medic and some scout trees), I would love to see a Master pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman+MBH or a TKM/invest 3 being able to offer a good resistance during the fights.Those professions have a good range of interesting attacks which could make the BH vs jedi pvp more interesting and tactical. At this time, BH vs Jedi fights only results in launching traps every 5 sec, spamming intimidate/warcry and using fast blast with a 1k damages LLC every second (and I am not talking about the additional unattackable toons which grant bonuses to the BHrs ). Of course, do not see a complaint in my words, I am currently fine with that as this is mainly the only way of fighting jedis for BHrs.



Wooly

[Celt]

The discussion should always be about improving all classes & game content, not nerfing or removing. Also it should be about making it more fun & challenging, not easy. Some players equate easy with fun. Lots of 10X xp, week to unlock, bored and gone in 3 month servers.

This is the rub. All the changes Jedi ask for to "keep them from leaving" will simply force them away through boredom if they were granted. There are servers where jedi is easy mode. XP rates so high that the xp loss from a BH kill is nothing (literally 2 sharnaffs worth of xp). Unlocking takes 2 days and templating takes a single buff session. Knight trials take a day and FRS is literally handed out for free in an FRS xp tick every 5 minutes. Loot rates are great so everyone has pearls, bounty hunters are less coordinated and come 1 v 1 and dont hunt in packs.

The Jedi still cry and those that dont play 3-6 months and leave out of boredom. Tuning things down to make things easier wont fix the problems the class has, it only exchanges one set of problems for another set of problems. We need to focus on ways to make things fun as well as challenging. Fixing issues which are currently broken (powers etc) and adding some variety.

The one tactic that seems to work in other succesful MMO's is a policy which buffs weak mechanics instead of nerfing powerful ones. Its the same affect but you are not improving the game for one subset of players at the expense of another, THAT is what drives players away. All these other factors which supposedly run Jedi off are just excuses for players who were leaving anyway. They just needed a scapegoat. Just my opinion of course.

[Koven]

The discussion should always be about improving all classes & game content, not nerfing or removing. Also it should be about making it more fun & challenging, not easy. Some players equate easy with fun. Lots of 10X xp, week to unlock, bored and gone in 3 month servers.

This is the rub. All the changes Jedi ask for to "keep them from leaving" will simply force them away through boredom if they were granted. There are servers where jedi is easy mode. XP rates so high that the xp loss from a BH kill is nothing (literally 2 sharnaffs worth of xp). Unlocking takes 2 days and templating takes a single buff session. Knight trials take a day and FRS is literally handed out for free in an FRS xp tick every 5 minutes. Loot rates are great so everyone has pearls, bounty hunters are less coordinated and come 1 v 1 and dont hunt in packs.

The Jedi still cry and those that dont play 3-6 months and leave out of boredom. Tuning things down to make things easier wont fix the problems the class has, it only exchanges one set of problems for another set of problems. We need to focus on ways to make things fun as well as challenging. Fixing issues which are currently broken (powers etc) and adding some variety.

The one tactic that seems to work in other succesful MMO's is a policy which buffs weak mechanics instead of nerfing powerful ones. Its the same affect but you are not improving the game for one subset of players at the expense of another, THAT is what drives players away. All these other factors which supposedly run Jedi off are just excuses for players who were leaving anyway. They just needed a scapegoat. Just my opinion of course.

Except if you go back and read through this thread there are very few calls to make anything easy for jedi. Most will concede that visibility is not working up to Awakening standards and should be addressed. Many are asking for adjustments to jedi skills to make them work or be more effective. There are a lot of calls to adjust xp loss or the negative xp cap but no mention of removing them, nor are there requests to increase jedi xp. Yes, a lot of us want to see freeze traps gone but not simply because we want to win. We want to have a fighting chance when you guys show up and be able to build a template without worrying about surviving one.

The fact is, that there are a lot of jedi that haven't left... they just don't log them in anymore. A lot of that has to do with current mechanics taking the fun out of playing them. I don't think that a major overhaul to the jedi class or beating the hell out of the bounty hunter class with the nerf bat are needed to address those issues, but if they are I think you'll find many more jedi to hunt.

[Cynar]

Your opinions are pretty much hitting the mark. No pun intended there. We need people with more than a 5 minute attention span, which we have as a good base. I get people only having so much time, working, want to have fun, etc. For those people Awakening might not be the right server. They don’t have the time so they want instant gratification or with little ease when they play.

As a man with very little personal time I completely get that. Nothing wrong with wanting a server like that. That ain’t Awakening and we aren’t changing it for that group of people. So for about the billionth time people need to quit trying to justify that reason. It’s not going to happen so move on from the idea. We are wanting to fix broken things and make all things more fun. Like I said earlier easy doesn’t = fun. Easy = fast and that’s not part of Awakenings mission statement.

This is off topic but we also need people to stop being juvenile and running people into the ground with pvp. The complaints are racking up against individuals out there that are running good players off. Players need to learn when enough is enough. Just because the rules might have you covered your actions can still be detremental to the server. I’ve got a list of complaints in a text file longer than my arm. Don’t pick on the same target so much or over & over. Don’t do stupid shit like corpse/clone camp.

If people are running people off because they have no self restraint it’s when people like me interject. Kill a target and move on. If said target mouths off, maybe kill them one more time later, but don’t hound them. You are contributing to your own boredom later when you perform these actions. Potentially driving off a good player and more viable entertaining fight down the road.

Back on topic. We will entertain ideas that don’t involve nerfing, making things easier, or removing abilities. What we are looking at is moving skills around/tweaking to make them both more effective, challenging, and maybe more skill mix friendly.

[JadynKarn]

Is the frs going to be vanilla swg frs, or custom. Vanilla frs had its issues, it was easily fightclubbed, it de-incentived jedi pvp vs non jedi, as killing a non jedi got you nothing while killing another frs jedi did give xp. But the biggest problem was that the frs was imbalanced in regards to the 5 different jedi professions as well as between the light and dark side frs

What i mean in regards to the profession imbalance is that the bonuses given, gave great improvememt to enhancer, powers, and healer, but gave literally nothing to sabers since saber attacks are based on weapon damage, and nothing to defender because of its passive nature other than ai. So getting higher ranks increased the disparity between the different jedi specs themselves. Force armor at rank 6 was much stronger and more force efficient to the point defender was worthless.

The other imbalance was that the frs bonuses were different between the light and dark side. A dark side powers user who is rank 4 would do more damage than a light side powers user of the same rank. Or a rank 8 light jedi's force armor was much stronger and more efficient than a dark jedi of the same ranks. From a pvp balancing perspective this makes it a nightmare to balance individual skills and specs.

I realize this was done for lore reasons as the nature of the darkside is more about damage and power while the light is supposed to be more about control and healing, but using lore to make gameplay decisions doesnt = good gameplay.