forceAttack / Defence Rolls

[StepoKedur]

Hi folks,

I'm womdering if any if you have a link or something for the old mitigation rolls, ie melee/ranged mit first, then food, drink, secondaries tertiaries (CoB stuff) etc.

I think after chatting with a few folks that the order has been changed in pub 8 by the emu team for some reason, breaking a lot of things that depend on a certain order.

These are some accuracy roll, force power stuff and others.

If those I have chatted with can post what issues they have maybe we can work out what had changed in pub 8.

My main observation and Narrk noticed this too is force KD and possibly fIntimidate. If they are an early roll they either hit or miss (something like 5% chance of not hitting). However if food is now rolled first, THAT mitigates the attack before the fKD has a chance to do the hit ir miss.

Cheers!

[davej30]

Hi folks,

I'm womdering if any if you have a link or something for the old mitigation rolls, ie melee/ranged mit first, then food, drink, secondaries tertiaries (CoB stuff) etc.

I think after chatting with a few folks that the order has been changed in pub 8 by the emu team for some reason, breaking a lot of things that depend on a certain order.

These are some accuracy roll, force power stuff and others.

If those I have chatted with can post what issues they have maybe we can work out what had changed in pub 8.

My main observation and Narrk noticed this too is force KD and possibly fIntimidate. If they are an early roll they either hit or miss (something like 5% chance of not hitting). However if food is now rolled first, THAT mitigates the attack before the fKD has a chance to do the hit ir miss.

Cheers!

I think what you need to ask first stepo is it custom awakening code or swgemu? then work from there.
Our little squad of friendly people had to go think tank mode for a couple of weeks once a certain jedi build became prevalent,now this could have been a code issue or "as intended" but often when things have changed it affects something else.
Hard to say,i would get clarification first,is it base code? or custom changes.

[StepoKedur]

Most likely base code. I could almost swear I read it somewhere about pub 8 on the SWGemu forums, and shall endeavour to find it.

The Basilisk forums may not have mention of it yet, I couldn't see much last week but I could have missied it even if it were blatently in front of me

[lassic]

I don't have that old link from the original code, but I do know this: Primary Def>Secondary Def>State Def. The first check is to see if you are even hit. The second is to see if you mitigate the hit with CA-Block-Dodge, followed by if the attack has a state it applies then that is checked.

The piece I have not been able to parse out is whether or not the state check is done regardless of mitigation by a secondary def? With dodge negating the attack altogether, that would appear to hold true. However, with CA and Block, where it is a partial mitigation, a check for state application logically follows. I don't know where the code sits on this, or even if that could have been written that way.

[StepoKedur]

I don't have that old link from the original code, but I do know this: Primary Def>Secondary Def>State Def. The first check is to see if you are even hit. The second is to see if you mitigate the hit with CA-Block-Dodge, followed by if the attack has a state it applies then that is checked.

Yeah that looks right as a basic rule of thumb. Thanks mate

It looks like food was way down the list too. Now force KD as an example seems to be AFTER a food roll. (Not a bread roll )

For example, fKD3 is supposed to be this:

Force Intimidate and Force Knockdown are considered Force Power attacks and not as state-inducing attacks. Their accuracy modifiers are only compared against the target’s Force Defenses. Defense Versus and Jedi State Defenses are not factored in, if the attack hits then the state is automatically applied.

...and rolled first if not very early. If food and drink is ahead of this, food and drink can mitigate this before the roll of something like 95% (not actual number maybe) guaranteed hit of fKD3. Which negates attacks that should not be mitigated outside a defender.

Accuracy issues have been bought to my attention too and other issues (please chime in those who have seen this).

It could be a rather interesting misfire from moving food to the front of the queue (of which I'm almost sure was pub 8 )...

[lassic]

Now I see where you were talking. Food would come into play after a hit is determined. So, for instance: Primary def>Pikatta pie>Secondary Def>Def v KD food>State def.

Now this all depends on if this is an "additive" stat from the food or its own modifier. For some food it says "add +X to stat Y". Whereas pikatta pie states, "50% dodge chance". Which is a separate check in the stack. If it were to add to a stat, then the check would fall on when that stat is checked in the stack.

[StepoKedur]

It seems to be (and I could be wrong obviously) that food and drink is, since pub 8, a roll BEFORE certain checks, therefore affecting the way certain things work.

Some folks think accuracy and other things may have been affected (independant of my theory) but I'm not sure where food/drink at the front if the queue would affect accuracy exactly.

[Madroxtheninja]

This all is way above my head, My question is this

Let’s say I have 117 melee def( that’s skills and tapes) I eat vegarspine to bring me to 140 melee def, now against say a Jedi who can only be at max 100 accuracy( if they pop snow cake they should be at 140 also)
Let’s say they don’t... I shouldn’t be hit by them at all.. that is not the case, however if ts RANGED def and I use Thundercloud it’s missed attacked all day long, what’s the difference and why isn’t that working?

[StepoKedur]

Glad you posted Maddy - hoped you would. When we chatted the other day I think we git distracted so it's good to see it written there.

I'll think on that post of yours. Hopefully someone chimes in beforehand too

[StepoKedur]

This all is way above my head, My question is this

Let’s say I have 117 melee def( that’s skills and tapes) I eat vegarspine to bring me to 140 melee def, now against say a Jedi who can only be at max 100 accuracy( if they pop snow cake they should be at 140 also)
Let’s say they don’t... I shouldn’t be hit by them at all.. that is not the case, however if ts RANGED def and I use Thundercloud it’s missed attacked all day long, what’s the difference and why isn’t that working?

So with melee if you eat vegarspine (however it's spelled ) and if a jedi has less melee accuracy than you then you Shouldn't be getting hit - but you are.

With ranged and you have thundercloud then it's working as intended?

[Madroxtheninja]

Yes stepo, at work on mobile so cant get the quote button to work with my fat fingers and a small screen hahaha but yes

With food I’m at 140 melee def, Jedi at MLS is at 100 accuracy so even without food they shouldn’t hit me as much
Unless they eat snow cake, I’ve tested this multiple times with different people and i don’t see how it could possibly be working, even if I blind them that should lower accuracy also IIRC but it’s not I still get hit ALOT

With thundercloud we had to find work around cause it was working very well for Jedi who used it, it brought their ranged defense above our accuracy

Why doesn’t melee work the same is what I’m asking I guess

[StepoKedur]

Lets have a wee think

A jedi with FS ranged defence should have a further +20 ranged def. If he or she is mDef thats another +75 bringing it to +95. Add a couple of things on belt, hat, gloves you can hit 125.

Thundercloud can hit +100 ranged def I think. I'm probably wrong with that number by a lot.

However I am sure this is a different roll in the sequence. In effect two bites at the cherry. I wonder if what you are noticing there is the Thundercloud rolling then a secondary roll afterwards.

I would though expect the same to be with the snow cake. Two rolls of the dice there.

The question though is what sequence is it. Is food in Pub 8 confirmed to be higher up in the roll sequence?

In reality the vegeparsine shouldn't bring you to 140 melee def but roll for whatever the vegeparsine is worth before other things are rolled in.

I'm thinking the roll for the melee food is hitting you before the other stuff should thus affecting you more. I presume the melee food itself is reletivly low number.

The ranged stuff may be seeming to work well if it is a 100+ number as if it's an early roll it has a decent chance of working.

It LOOKS like it's the food first problem then. I'm not loaded in yet so can someone post a ballpark number for snowcake, vegeparsine and thundercloud please? It looks like the higher the food/drink value is, as it's at the front (or near the front) of the queue that is working well before the other rolls down the line. If a food/drink is 23+ then as it's not ADDED to the base stat skills but rolled early it is more noticeably 'not working'. Before hand the other skills may have been higher up the roll list so preventing things reaching the food much.

That's how it looks to me...so far. Does this make sense?

[lassic]

I see what you guys are saying about the def mod v attack mod. However, it depends on the language of the food. If it is an additive, like I said earlier it adds to an existing stat, +40 to melee def v. 50% dodge chance, then there will be checks based off of that. If you have both of those foods on board, there is the first check v. the 50% dodge chance, then there would be a melee def check v. the melee def with that food bonus added to it.

The other factors are the to hit bonus, the roll itself, movement, attack mod of the weapon, etc. Those will cause a variation in the base attack roll outside of the "to hit mod" of LS acc, in this case. Great discussion. ;D

[StepoKedur]

Thanks Lassic Could you expand a little more on 'the language of the food/drinks' please, just so I'm totally on the same page as you mate. Any examples too?

[lassic]

For example, vasarian brandy says it will add +300 to mind, focus, and will. This language is just a flat modifier to an existing stat, not adding another check in the stack.

Thundercloud- "Skill: Ranged Defense, Mod: +20" This clearly is just additive to ranged def.
Vegeparsine- "Skill: Melee Defense, Mod: +20". This is just additive to the melee def.

Pikatta pie says, "increases chance to dodge an attack. % chance to dodge: 50". With this language it is its own roll. So, in the stack, it is checked after the roll to hit is made, but before any secondary defenses are activated. Those are only activated if a hit is scored.
No matter what happens there is no chance to dodge unless there is a potential hit. So the order of operations has to be that initial "to hit" roll based off of accuracy and defenses.

exo protein wafers- "reduces damage taken from attacks. %damage reduction: 22" This would trigger after an attack has successfully hit, but before damage is applied. Where it is applied is in question. Is it from the damage roll before armor reduction? Is it before any other mitigation from various defenses?

I think what they refer to them as, "skill buffing" v. "Special effect" foods and drinks.

[Madroxtheninja]

Ok then take food out of it
I’m at 117 melee def vs someone with only 100 accuracy how does that work

[StepoKedur]

Thanks mate that's really clear good info

So if the ranged and melee def is not a different roll, what could be affecting say Madrox's attacks/def?

The powers makes sense foodwise that that is how it is borked. Not so much the melee and ranged defs...yet

[lassic]

I think we will need a coder here. It would have to go down to the roll. What is the "dice roll" that is added to your attack? If you think about it, a total n00b toon has a 10 accuracy. If it were always the case that a def of 11 would prevent being hit, a new person would never be able to hit anything with a def that high. Hence that random roll to hit. I think it is a "d100" roll and the modifiers are added to it. However, I do not know that for certain. I couldn't find a reference to that roll in the lua searches or other swg searches I did. If that is the case, then there is the chance for a good roll to still give an opportunity to hit.

[davej30]

I also think that Pikatta pie is disabled or modified for PVP. I dont have any proof on this and rarely do i mention it as i think it people want to eat it more fool them.
Logic and experience tells me players don't have a 50-55% chance of evading my attacks in PvP.
Steppo i personally think your barking up the wrong tree,in the case of Thak which i believe is your annoyance (welcome to BH territory) its a modifier (+100) and not a separate roll.
I really dont think you get a separate roll there and even if it was possible there still the 5% chance of anything not working regardless of caps.acc etc and the cap is 125
Maybe looking at the supposed accuracy of force KD is what you should be putting the magnifying glass over.

Thundercloud and Vegeparsine both these are modifers (+20/22).
However what may have worked as "above the cap" in live may not work on SWGMEU.
You may find yourself capped at 125 regardless to whatever you thought was "cannon".

[lassic]

You may find yourself capped at 125 regardless to whatever you thought was "cannon".

*Canon