forceAttack / Defence Rolls

[davej30]

You may find yourself capped at 125 regardless to whatever you thought was "cannon".

*Canon

Don't make me pull the disability card

[StepoKedur]

I get what you are saying Terry, but I am going with Occam's Razor principal here.
( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's ... prov=sfti1 )

As the skill is
Force Intimidate and Force Knockdown are considered Force Power attacks and not as state-inducing attacks. Their accuracy modifiers are only compared against the target’s Force Defenses. Defense Versus and Jedi State Defenses are not factored in, if the attack hits then the state is automatically applied.

...and I recall reading that the roll orders were changing, logically I reckon that the food order could be affecting things. I am still trying to endeavour to find where I read this...pretty sure it was pub 8 but if it were pub 7 this error goes back a while. The problem is that this may mostly only be manifesting in powers skills (with some powers skills only mitigated by defender).

The fact that these powers skills are being mitigated by food/drink (whichever it is I cannae recall offhand what it's classified as) suggests that the food roll is first, where the powers roll should be - in fact it should be at he top alongside melee and ranged checks. If a player has no force defence (someone with no defender skills whatsoever) then that would factor in. Of course there will be a small chance to have it miss anyway, but a very small chance.

I was wondering if the food and drink roll could also affect non jedi attacks/defence too. As I say that's a harder one to notice. Most changes will not make a difference, but maybe some rolls may be out of kilter. Ie 6x2/3=4 but if the order is changed to 6x3/2=9 the result is altered (I know, dodgy analogy but you get the gist).

I am also having a hard job deciphering the github coding for combat rolls. It (food roll placement) might be mentioned in SWGemu pub 7 notes, and I will check it out later.

[davej30]

Stepo, i prefer Sherlock holmes quote i think its more fitting for you

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Or apply Occam's razor and choose the path of least resistance.

Anyhow lets look at what has been wrote and have a little play from there.

Force Intimidate and Force Knockdown are considered Force Power attacks and not as state-inducing attacks. Their accuracy modifiers are only compared against the target’s Force Defenses. Defense Versus and Jedi State Defenses are not factored in, if the attack hits then the state is automatically applied.

Lets work with the first highlighted section,IF the attack hits,forget about applying your state (KD),lets think about if the attack actually hits.

Master force KD accuracy is +110
non master (box 4) is +75
So one of your questions would be,is force KD a melee attack or a ranged attack or classed as both.For simplicity lets just say both.
Your non master skills are going to do squat at +75 and your master box may not hit without snowcake vs a defense stacker or a Jedi with defense lines.
Lets also throw in a little something i warned both you and dannyrand about prior to pub 8 (you didnt listen then lets see if you listen now)
If blind state is applied you will have a -60 accuracy penalty just to start off with (sprayshot anyone?)
Esp if intim has been landed first you will get what i called back then "blind state wars".

Force Intimidate and Force Knockdown are considered Force Power attacks and not as state-inducing attacks. Their accuracy modifiers are only compared against the target’s Force Defenses. Defense Versus and Jedi State Defenses are not factored in, if the attack hits then the state is automatically applied.

Now lets work with the second highted section which is probably more relevant to you as i think your primary concern is BH and the fast blast swinging type doesnt have primary defenses (another thing i warned you about IF you have have FB removed).
Now reading it to the letter we would assume that primary defenses do not apply as the accuracy modifiers only work vs force defense,jedi state defense and most importantly Defense VS............(defense vs knockdown? hmmmmm).

Lets just say as a BH i have a defense vs knockdown of say +75 that's the same as your non master box,thus canceling both out,If i have dropped a blind state on you it is -60 before you even make the roll!!! or -25 as master ouchy!

Now lets factor in food and just for arguments sake and lets say thak doesn't go above the cap that's an extra +100 to the roll which would make +125 vs KD vs your +110Acc and minus 60 if you have been blinded.
Now if food goes above the caps as we think it does that's +175 vs your +110
Its doesn't look good even if you add snowcake because sure as eggs the BH will open up with blind state -20 or -40 respectfully.
And on this reasoning a separate food roll would actually work in your favour.

In closing this is what i have provided you with the deconstruction of the sentence you have given me.
I don't think a separate food roll is your issue,i believe it is an accuracy issue and if you break down the wording of it i am hoping you might see it too.

EDIT...after rereading this and i've noticed there is a glaring error on my behalf (bad eyes) if it is not a Accuracy issue it is that the secondary defensive VS whatever is actually being applied rather then food being a separate roll. My bad for typing a lot of crap which although doesn't seem relevant helps point us in the right direction

[StepoKedur]

Bonus points for the Sherlock reference - and thanks for the post. Interesting stuff there.

The thing is they are neither melee nor ranged attacks but a third, force attacks. That's why defender xxXx, force feedback and force shield are supposed to be the only defence against it. Food isn't even suppose to come into it. I will try to test KD chance against Thak and without tonight sometime.

(Bear in kind too I am mPowers).

Aye, I agree that state inducing hits are awesome and very often neglected. (I thought blind was -50 - of which I THINK works out something akin to the attacker sticking the blind having an equivalent of an extra +100 ranged or melee accuracy against normal stats - the effect is the same).

I also never wanted FB removed, but put to a more plausible (lol plausible in a game with space wizards) carbines and pistols.

This bit Terry i don't get though matey:

#################################################################################################################

Force Intimidate and Force Knockdown are considered Force Power attacks and not as state-inducing attacks. Their accuracy modifiers are only compared against the target’s Force Defenses. Defense Versus and Jedi State Defenses are not factored in, if the attack hits then the state is automatically applied.

Now lets work with the second highted section which is probably more relevant to you as i think your primary concern is BH and the fast blast swinging type doesnt have primary defenses (another thing i warned you about IF you have have FB removed).
Now reading it to the letter we would assume that primary defenses do not apply as the accuracy modifiers only work vs force defense,jedi state defense and most importantly Defense VS............(defense vs knockdown? hmmmmm).

Lets just say as a BH i have a defense vs knockdown of say +75 that's the same as your non master box,thus canceling both out,If i have dropped a blind state on you it is -60 before you even make the roll!!! or -25 as master ouchy!

##################################################################################################################

Defence v KD from a BH doesn't work against force KD.

It should against lightsabre throw/KD, teras kasi KD and smuggler low blow et al, but never against force KD.

Accuracy bonuses do not work against force KD either. Only def xxXx, fShield and feedback (which is more attuned to damage attacks like lightning. Blind should logically affect the accuracy of the fKD but it doesn't.

I noted your edit there Terry just now (and an extra point matey too for being modest and writing that in too). You see there should be nothing that affects fKD or fIntimidate as it should roll before food or drink therefore never really reaching that. The order of mitigation previously is an easy way to code in the defences and attacks that should not be mitigated apart from certain skills.

IF Thakatillo was before the check on the target that said "is this attacked toon def xxXx has fShield up or applying feedback" then the Thak roll would negate things that came after it, as Thak is awesome

I am thinking Thank IS indeed ahead of the other rolls as it seems that with Thak then fKD is mitigated. Without Thak, fKD works as intended. I will do some quick tests tonight too

[StepoKedur]

By the way thanks for all those contributing to this thread. I love getting my teeth into something and I think a few of you do too!

I wouldn't mind young Narrk's thoughts here too as he mentioned the issue a while back too.

[davej30]

I am thinking Thank IS indeed ahead of the other rolls as it seems that with Thak then fKD is mitigated. Without Thak, fKD works as intended. I will do some quick tests tonight too

what i am trying to point out in my dilapidated state is defense vs KD is working against force KD,a separate food roll would only be 100 vs your 110 so they would in affect both negate each other,and a separate food roll shouldn't even exist if the defense vs KD was bypassed.Also don't dismiss blind state,currently i would say its the most powerful state in the game unless your up against a Tkm.

[StepoKedur]

Dilapidated! (more bonus points) - I do use that word myself and am always overjoyed man when I see others using such things

(...by the way is a dilapidated state -20 currently in game? )

But, but you hear me cry! but, def against KD is not supposed to roll against fKD.

I'm basically trying to work out the simplest change that could have affected things.

Blind state, as well as the others are awesome.

Oh, here are my notes carried over from Chimaera server back in the day. I still have old macros for NGE stuff floating about in the macro window too! Some may have changed slightly. It's a slight deviation from topic but I do agree with you, the 'minor' attacks that cause these things are VERY important. The info might be handy for folks who didn't know or forgot over the years.

##########################################################################################

DAMAGE MITIGATION - BUFFS AND DEBUFFS

The basic function of damage mitigation is that it reduces the "spread" of damage on the weapon that is attacking you, also known as it's "damage range." It reduces the range by a set percentage, and accomplishes this by reducing the maximum damage. The reduction amounts are as follows:

Level 1 damage mitigation limits damage to 80% of the range (20% reduction)
Level 2 damage mitigation limits damage to 60% of the range (40% reduction)
Level 3 damage mitigation limits damage to 40% of the range (60% reduction)

To determine the amount of reduction, use the following formula:

Max Damage - Min Damage = Range
Range x Remaining % = New Range
Min Damage + New Range = New Max Damage
Lets try it. Say we have a 60-200 damage pistol, and we are facing a target with Level 3 Ranged Damage Mitigation:

200 - 60 = 140
140 x 40% = 56
60 + 56 = 116

So the new damage range is 60-116.

Some more rules:
It functions in both PvE & PvP. NPCs and Creatures currently do not possess damage mitigation themselves.
You can stack both Ranged & Melee Damage Mitigation. They will each be in effect at all times.
Multiple boxes of the same type of Mitigation (Ranged or Melee) do not stack with one another. The only way to get Level 3 is to master an elite combat profession, and multiple boxes of Level 3 provide no further benefit.

> Blind = -50 off the to-hit chance
> Stun= 10% damage reduction and -50 to primary defences
> dizzy = chance of posture change.
> intimidate = reduction of damage to 1/3, lowers primary and state defs by 50% as well as secondary i.e. dodge, block, etc.
For to-hit, think like this. For every point your opponent has in ranged or melee defence your chance to hit is decreased by 0.5%.

If you get a -50 on your opponent through blind then it's the same as you having an extra +100 in ranged and melee for the duration of that blind - I think.

Intimidate reduces damage dealt by 50% and reduces "melee defense" and "ranged defense" by -20
Stun only reduces damaged dealt by 20% and reduces "melee defense" and "ranged defense" by -50
Intimidate also cancels any dodge abilities on the opponent if it sticks.

[StepoKedur]

By the way I'm enjoying the hell out of this discussion. Some great ideas coming up.

[bobaphat]

There is an innate chance to hit in pvp.

[StepoKedur]

Oioi there DannyRand lad! The immortal Iron Fist...been a while

It seems on the emu setup 'innate chance to hit' is right...which is wrong!

Just did testing against my TKM. Interesting results, and I didn't even get to the food.

The TKM has an unarmed accuracy of 205/227 with the bone bracer on.
The jedi has fKD accuracy of 110.

With the bracer on I hardly ever KD the TKM. With the bracer off I have a slightly higher chance.

CoB on the TKM doesn't make that much difference really.


The thing is accuracy isn't supposed to come into the equation at all where these force powers are concerned.

The blurb for fKD and power attacks clearly state that their accuracy modifiers are only compared against the target's force defence.

If this is indeed the case and it is after all the accuracy causing an issue, it may be a simpler fix than the food would have been. It may also be affecting stuff Madrox mentioned too, but sticking with force power 'attacks' I'll crash on...

Could this be fixed by upping the force (insert attack here, say KD) accuracy so it works as it should with 'muggles' (none wizards) and upping the force defense numbers of defender? As they are not supposed to be mitigated by muggles defs or accuracy but just a chance of missing it would not break the jedi v muggle game.

Force shield seems to be working OK by mitigating attacks percentagewise and force reflect is doing likewise.

I would like to test basic KD stuff with other profs too against the jedi like swords, fencer, poles et al. Hopefully I'll het more data tomorrow.

In the meantime what do you folks think?

[Lasod]

im not going to dive full on into this nerdfest but here is a noteworthy link for this discussion

http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_accuracy_equation

[StepoKedur]

Hi Lasod!

Aye I've got that jotted down somewhere. However the accuracy for force 'attacks' must have a different simpler equation if they are only mitigated by the things I mention above.

It seems that these force attacks are being treated as normal attacks.

I cannae recall if it was this bad prior to pub 8 as I changed my spec at 8. Anyone have any input? I know there are a couple of folks there that tried mPowers pre pub 8...

[lassic]

That formula that was posted in the wiki link Lasod provided was what I was looking for. So, your starting point is essentially 66 + all other modifiers in the calculation.

Now, to how the powers stuff is supposed to be working and what defenses it is supposed to check against, I think that is all about coding.

[StepoKedur]

Before I head to bed I found in the forceAttack search in github all the force attacks as hoped for are labelled as "forceAttack = true," which is hopeful that it MAY have been changed in pub 9.

Not had a dig deep enough to see what is rolls against (although accuracy is there just as expected and as it should be).

I would like to find out if forceAttack means (if it has been fixed in pub 9) that it is not rolled against accuracy in muggle profs.

We will find out soon enough on test centre I suppose.

In the meantime I'll have a delve in tomorrow

Oh, here we go. According to wiki.swganh.org at least...

Force Defense Determines how difficult you are to hit with Force Power attacks.
Directly correlates to an opponent’s accuracy when determining successful hits. Note that it only works against Force Power attacks. Unknown if the Stun status effect has any affect on Force Defense.

This ability reduces the accuracy of force attacks against the player and also has the effect of reducing the damage done if a state is applied. No formula was devised but it could works as follows:

forceDamageReceived = forceAttackDamage x ( 0.5 x ( ForceDefenseMod / 100 ) )

ChancetoHit = multiplier1 x ( forceAttackersAccuracyMod / 100 ) - ( multiplier2 x (defendersForceDefenseMod / 100 ) ) ) )

This makes it so a master defender has a chance to greatly reduce the accuracy of this attack. We could perhaps tweak it to set the defender multiplier if this is too much, although I suppose it would defeat the purpose of having defender if it did not significantly affect the accuracy/damage of force attacks by master level, although there is also the issue with dabblers taking up the defense line and being almost as powerful as a master.

[davej30]

*laughs at stepo* i think its your turn to make the tea

[jonnyfurious]

I am going to try to keep this short because I could go through this all night. Let me also preface by saying there is no reason to believe that the attacks vs food, armor, or secondaries should hit in one order or another. I don't care how it worked in SWG Live for 2 months before the CU. The game was a shitshow back then and our goal here should be to find what works in the spirit of Awakening.

With that said here is the code. This does not appear to have changed between Pub 8 and 9, but I make no guarantees that the Emu guys didn't make changes without logging them. I also don't know what has been customized for Awakening, but it seems most of this is intact. I tried to pick out what you guys are discussing in the code to show some of what is going on. This is only some snippets from the combat manager and commands LUA scripts. I hope this is helpful.

First Intimidate negates secondary defenses. It looks as though intimidate is zeroing any secondary defense.
540 int CombatManager::getDefenderSecondaryDefenseModifier(CreatureObject* defender) {
541 if (defender->isIntimidated()) return 0;
542
543 int targetDefense = 0;
544 ManagedReference<WeaponObject*> weapon = defender->getWeapon();
545
546 Vector<String>* defenseAccMods = weapon->getDefenderSecondaryDefenseModifiers();
...
1094 if (damage > 0) {
1095 targetDefense = getDefenderSecondaryDefenseModifier(targetCreature);
1096
1097 if (targetDefense <= 0)
1098 return HIT; // no secondary defenses

When is food calculated? It looks like here damage mitigation food is calculated at the end of the string. The LUA scripts suggest that other defensive foods are calcualted as an addition to state defenses so there is no seperate roll for them.
560 float CombatManager::getDefenderToughnessModifier(CreatureObject* defender, int attackType, int damType, float damage) {
561 ManagedReference<WeaponObject*> weapon = defender->getWeapon();
562
563 Vector<String>* defenseToughMods = weapon->getDefenderToughnessModifiers();
564
565 if (attackType == weapon->getAttackType()) {
566 for (int i = 0; i < defenseToughMods->size(); ++i) {
567 int toughMod = defender->getSkillMod(defenseToughMods->get(i));
568 if (toughMod > 0) damage *= 1.f - (toughMod / 100.f);
569 }
570 }
571
572 int jediToughness = defender->getSkillMod("jedi_toughness");
573 if (damType != WeaponObject::LIGHTSABER && jediToughness > 0)
574 damage *= 1.f - (jediToughness / 100.f);
575
576 int foodBonus = defender->getSkillMod("mitigate_damage");
577 if (foodBonus > 0)
578 damage *= 1.f - (foodBonus / 100.f);
579
580 return damage < 0 ? 0 : damage;
581 }

Force knockdown vs a standard knockdown. Here is a standard knockdown (Unarmed Knockdown 1). You can see it is rolled against Defense vs Knockdown (which is the player's skill mod plus food) as well as the recovery/knockdown timer. It is not rolled against Jedi State Defense. Again I make no claim of how it should work. This is how it is working right now.

44 UnarmedKnockdown1Command = {
45 name = "unarmedknockdown1",
46
47 damageMultiplier = 1.0,
48 speedMultiplier = 1.5,
49 healthCostMultiplier = 1,
50 actionCostMultiplier = 1,
51 mindCostMultiplier = 1,
52 accuracyBonus = 15,
53
54 stateEffects = {
55 StateEffect(
56 KNOCKDOWN_EFFECT,
57 { "knockdownRecovery", "lastKnockdown" },
58 { "knockdown_defense" },
59 {},
60 15,
61 100,
62 0
63 )
64 },
65
66 animationCRC = hashCode("attack_special_shoulder_bash_medium"),
67
68 combatSpam = "sleepingkrayt",
69
70 range = -1
71 }
72
73 AddCommand(UnarmedKnockdown1Command)

Now contrast that with Force Knockdown. It is not rolled against state defense, which means food should do nothing. It is rolled against Force Defense though as discussed. It is classified as a Force Attack as someone mentioned.
44 ForceKnockdown1Command = {
45 name = "forceknockdown1",
46
47 damage = 0,
48 speed = 4.0,
49 forceCost = 75,
50 accuracySkillMod = "forceknockdown_accuracy";
51
52 stateEffects = {
53 StateEffect(
54 KNOCKDOWN_EFFECT,
55 { "knockdownRecovery", "lastKnockdown" },
56 { "force_defense" },
57 {},
58 65,
59 100,
60 0
61 )
62 },
63
64
65 animationCRC = hashCode("force_knockdown_1_particle_level_1"),
66
67 combatSpam = "forceknockdown1",
68
69 poolsToDamage = NONE,
70
71 attackType = FORCEATTACK,
72
73 range = 32
74 }

Lassic asked me about to d100 hit rolls, which is what got this started. There is what is essentially a d100 saving throw made by the defender when an attacker is applying states. The defender's skill mod is subtracted from attacker's (modified) accuracy and that is compared to the d100 roll. If the roll is higher, the state fails to apply.
1755 if (System::random(100) > accuracyMod - targetDefense)
1756 failed = true;

Jedi would get 2 saving rolls as long as they have a state defense and a jedi state defense greater than zero. There was a bug that looks like it was giving everyone the jedi roll at least through pub 7, but with a zero for jedi state defense it probably was barely noticeable.

[davej30]

First Intimidate negates secondary defenses. It looks as though intimidate is zeroing any secondary defense.

I had a feeling it was doing that instead of a percentage!

49 forceCost = 75,250

FIXED!

When is food calculated? It looks like here damage mitigation food is calculated at the end of the string. The LUA scripts suggest that other defensive foods are calcualted as an addition to state defenses so there is no seperate roll for them.

Looks like you better get boiling that kettle stepo,don't forget the biscuits!

Thanks jonny for your input,maybe we should give you a reprieve for a few hours in game for your efforts lol.

Another thing this script seems to look like actionscript,is it java? because it looks like something i could get my head around as centuries ago i had to learn actionscript when flash was owned by macromedia.

[StepoKedur]

It's C++ and Lua whatever the hell lua is.

I like what Jonny wrote and I agree that hits are all over the place, that it must have been a s***show back then (not that some coding isn't now!)

As I state above it looks like accuracy is rolling against forceAttacks when it should ONLY roll against melee and ranged...well LS too. This goes for food too and maybe other things.

I will try to test other profs against the mPowers tonight accuracy wise, but it does look like the issue may be that forceAttacks are not being treated as unique attacks but are in fact, and very wrongly being bunched into the other attack types: melee, ranged and lightsabre.

The code looks like it has forceAttack written into it so maybe it has been fixed for pub 9.

Until it hits TC it's gonna be hard to know. If it isn't fixed I hope there is time to fix it too.

By the way kettle is on, Tetley in mugs and Tunnocks teacakes on standby alongside ginger biscuits

Ginger Biscuits would be a good name for an ent... (or a Bothan Puppy!)

[lassic]

Thanks for the reply, Johnny. That is exactly what I was trying to find. I don't have the server code downloaded. I too did a little coding in college, but just didn't have the patience to write whole strings.

[StepoKedur]

Lassic, I popped you a pm mate with info as well so you can check stuff.