IMO what would fix PvP

[Xiphos]

We appreciate the comments. Please continue to contribute. Our first step will likely be to incorporate the Village points and then re-assess.

I'd also like to note that this is one of those things where we can't please everyone, and things aren't being put to a vote, but your opinions and ideas do matter and are welcome. Staff may be administering some polls over the next weeks and months to give public a voice on varying topics.

[Celt]

I really wish I had spotted this thread last night so I wouldnt have had to read 3 pages of it to catch up lol.

I have to agree with Cynar in the assertion that buffing C-Z to counter balance issues in relation to A and B is the preferable choice. I would go into some drawn out MMO theory response but I am just regurgitating what has already been stated. If you really want to find the root of the problem it is not pvp balance but pve balance. The "hardmode" switch caused a ripple effect of buffs to Jedi are what started the chain of events. Jedi get buffed, so BH gets buffed to be competitive when hunting. Those balance changes take about 8 months to get settled and the dev group focuses on keeping the server stable in the mean time, and poof! We end up here. For a minuscule dev team, working for free on a product developed exclusively through reverse engineering what was pretty primitive and shitty MMO code....I would say this server is working well. That's just my opinion of course.

So, solution mode. If Jedi is not going to be nerfed, then we have to consider direct counters to specific issues. This is something Bounty Hunters are well versed in (I think I am on my seventh template maybe?). We really need to see how the Village implements and wait till that settles. Any changes now, would be heavy handed as they are tuned for an alpha class that will have been nerfed. And yes, effectively losing 24 skill points and Novice Brawler will be a nerf. Many of the solutions are not code based. Loot more DoT weapons. Roll your own BH. Grind a Combat Medic etc. There are counters to Jedi that are effective, there just isn't a counter button that ensures the pack of Jedi you ran into in pvp can be neutralized. Sometimes you are going to encounter greater force than you can handle. Shit happens, bring friends.

That being said, I feel your pain. Hunting in packs with an LLC spamming intim/FB/trap/sprayshot in some sort of rotation is boring and I don't really enjoy it like I did in the old days. I hunt here because I am broke and don't craft, nor do I have a Jedi. Hunting someone for 20 minutes to get 1/3 of a near 600k payout isnt a bad way to make money. It beats grinding janta missions. I would much rather go back to stacker/bh and hunt knights solo. That was fun. Here, it's just business. Find whatever the most effective template/strategy is, whether its broke fire dots, or beam spamming, or FB/traps. Recruit two buddies and clear the terms. Then run 355s until the boards are alive again. Rinse/repeat. Oh wait, we were talking about pvp? BH/Jedi is perfect either.

Once the village hits we can reassess and go from there. But to nerf either class because Tkm/creature handler still sucks in pvp and combat medics ruin everything for stackers..well, sounds pretty similar to live to me. Sure I think Jedi Toughness is too damn high, force costs are too damn low, jedi have too many skill points, and FR is too fast. But somehow we still manage to kill them, even when they run in packs. Everything has a counter. Thats a good thing, otherwise we are playing rock paper scissors. Welcome to pvp.

Oh, and yes, Cynar is a dick sometimes. Probably why he did so well, in my opinion. It's ok, you're a dick sometimes as well. So am I. Good thing we are all adults.

[zaner13]

... But PvP is a two way street and requires active participants. That's up to players. Want in the party? Guild up and go at it. Grow your team and compliment it with appropriate classes. I don't buy that PvP can't be or isn't fun right now. Adapt to the environment and kill each other...

Will we still seek improvement? Of course. But those waiting on us to tune mechanics are missing the larger picture. Some of you are out there. Encourage others.

...As for the people running around in Jedi packs you are about to make things worse on yourself. You may want to curb that activity or risk seeing some mean ass AI intervention down the road. Jedi are supposed to be rare and hidden in this period and some changes may come to make you want to stay hidden.

My advice is play smart.

****I had a MUCH longer post, so I condensed it...A LOT (and it's still long!) lol****

You can't have active participants that's up to the players when you have another CSI (well "retired" CSI) flat out saying that if you run around with your character of choice soon, a Jedi, with your other friends' character of choice, another Jedi, that you're going to be, essentially, punished. It's made to seem like this is an every day occurrence, when it's not and it'd be different if this server had massive amounts of overts running around, and then Jedi come in and ruined it...but we don't...so what it's sounding like is more of punishing those that now wish to PvP with their Voritor Killing Machine lol... There's also other means to encourage the use of other characters, such as...

• Bringing back the NPC guards that are stationed at Theed and other cities that had them (give them LS resist).
• Spawn random amounts of NPCs at different star ports all over at random times (not dropped on the heads of roaming Jedi), this way if knights pop in, they're always risking their lives shuttling around.
• Could have player events like what Thor used to run that are exclusively for non-jedi characters.
• Up the damage of other classes/increase drops of better weapons/components (including dot weapons; maybe event rewards?).
• Make investigation take less XP so there's more BHs faster so there's always people hunting Jedi (new and experienced).
• Increase the number of people hunting a jedi even more.
• Bring back all TEF systems, city warn, BH tef, buffing tef, etc.
• Bring NPCs back to player bases that roam the outside, can't tell you the number of TEF battles started over some random guy farming faction at another person's base.
• Up jedi damage and reduce toughness (LLCs would need to be reigned in though).
• Increase Jedi on Jedi damage immensely...so that other Jedi are their own undoing.
• Redo the stats on the turrets...give them all varying amounts of LS resist. And please take a look at Large Block Turrets =/ They cost the same as the others, but there's no advantage resist wise in placing them.
• Create a third faction that you can't be a Jedi to join (most likely too much coding, but threw it out there).

CSI Interference like the way Cynar mentioned, would have killed the PvP at Bellicose the other night before it even started (did you see any complaints from their forum post about our little "pack" of Jedi? No, just some other whiny guild that didn't even help much...) Maybe if the CSI wants to get involved, they could drop easy troops to indicate that the jedi have been spotted? So it's not really a punishment and the jedi can still have a "reign of terror" for a little bit before the big guns show up. Or system message? After that, they could even play as Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker. I don't know, just giving some ideas instead, so everybody has fun.

Also...DJK trials state that they are trying to prove themselves worthy to the Empire...they can't do that from inside a house/hidden away hehe (Don't know what the LJK trials state, though...maybe they say they hide?)

Just talking about events made me miss Thor and reminisce :-\

Take care everybody and have a wonderful weekend!

~Zaner <SITH>

[Cynar]

Cynar never said CSI interference. He said AI. Please don't put made up words in his mouth. AI mobs aren't generated by staff beyond planned events. Think more along the lines of the old man/sith encounters where scripting is involved to detect certain triggers. Anyway, that's all I'm going to hint around about. I am retired CSR and I won't give away anymore hints as to what may or may not be happening prior to it hitting test center since people like to take what I say and rearrange it into things not true.

[Xiphos]

Now you're making Cynar speak in the third person...great...

You can't have active participants that's up to the players when you have another CSI (well "retired" CSI) flat out saying that if you run around with your character of choice soon, a Jedi, with your other friends' character of choice, another Jedi, that you're going to be, essentially, punished.

You go on to describe your positive experience at Bellicose, and that is the point of my statement: Jedi or no, PvP is far from lacking in fun but it takes folks who enjoy doing it to take part. I'd guess that many of those who don't enjoy it haven't been part of a good team in a good battle. (Because who doesn't enjoy good PvP?!?)

Keep in mind, it's been well-known that our goal is for Jedi to be difficult. This does not end after your build is complete. We'd like Jedi to remain as strong and as invisible as possible. We will continue to work toward that goal, which becomes increasingly difficult as more folks unlock. It's certainly a balancing act between making jedi strong (so that it does remain a special class) and rare (so folks logging in is something of a personal "event"). I believe that the latter portion is possible without ruining anyone's experience (and hopefully enhancing others').

Thank you for the list of suggestions. Some of those items have certainly come up among staff as well.

[RemusStorm]

But somehow we still manage to kill them, even when they run in packs. Everything has a counter. Thats a good thing, otherwise we are playing rock paper scissors. Welcome to pvp.

Celt, the problem is the "everyone has a counter" may be true when its BH vs Jedi, but the problem is, in Open world PvP, Jedi has no counter really, which makes it stale. Sure once a BH or 2 Runs in(With MISSIONS NOT OVERT) to Jedi in open PvP and throws a trap, the jedi will get worried, but then all that happens is all the jedi run away from open PvP as what happened in Belicose from what i heard.

Zaner some interesting points, but i think the whole point of Sevvy's post was that we want to make non-jedi PVP, OPEN WORLD/GCW PvP more enticing and fun, we need to see less work on BH vs Jedi minigame and more on other combat profs to make things less stale.

[Sevvy]

You go on to describe your positive experience at Bellicose, and that is the point of my statement: Jedi or no, PvP is far from lacking in fun but it takes folks who enjoy doing it to take part. I'd guess that many of those who don't enjoy it haven't been part of a good team in a good battle. (Because who doesn't enjoy good PvP?!?)

Of course his experience at Bellicose was positive. He was one of the Jedi. Lol.

[zaner13]

Now you're making Cynar speak in the third person...great...

*pulls Xiphos aside and whispers* What does that mean when he speaks like that? O.o

Cynar never said CSI interference. He said AI. Please don't put made up words in his mouth. AI mobs aren't generated by staff beyond planned events. Think more along the lines of the old man/sith encounters where scripting is involved to detect certain triggers. Anyway, that's all I'm going to hint around about. I am retired CSR and I won't give away anymore hints as to what may or may not be happening prior to it hitting test center since people like to take what I say and rearrange it into things not true.

Well my main concern was CSI interference, like I've seen on other private games/servers. If the spawning of AI are automated and not to the point where it completely makes grouping with a few Jedi a pointless experience, where all we'd be doing is fighting NPCs all day, then that's fine. There was no mention that it would be automatically triggered in your original post about it, it was simply stated that the jedi would risk having some "mean ass AI intervention down the road."Did that mean the AI would be spawned by CSI (like events that we have seen in the past)? Automatic (like how you just explained)? I had no way of knowing your intentions or how much additional coding was going to be implemented until you made this new post. This is why I offered other suggestions to encourage PvP with other characters instead, to avoid the possibility of any major interference. Since CSI interference is not the goal at all, some of the ideas can still actually be used for the AI spawning (like increasing difficulty/numbers, LS resistant mobs, etc - again, I have no idea with complexity of the coding so no idea what's actually capable).

Of course his experience at Bellicose was positive. He was one of the Jedi. Lol.

Seems <FEAR>, the owners of the city we attacked, had a good time too and they were the ones that lost turrets and a base in the same day...http://swgawakening.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7118

I also ran around as a CM/Doc in the theed battle, Stacker when taking out your turrets, and CM/Doc again down at Avalon Prime all before bringing my Jedi to Bellicose...so, whine about our Jedi some more please.

<FEAR> and friends actually just paid us back lmfao =P haha

[Celt]

Celt, the problem is the "everyone has a counter" may be true when its BH vs Jedi, but the problem is, in Open world PvP, Jedi has no counter really, which makes it stale.

Jedi are countered by Bounty Hunters, as has been stated in this thread. Bounty Hunters are countered by combat medics, who are countered by Doctors, who are countered by Jedi etc. The problem is it's difficult to coordinate enough people to have a counter for every situation.

[VyperWoo]

combat medics are countered by Jedi, doctors have very little role in pvp if there are jedi, especially master healers.

As far as the bounty hunter jedi mix for PvP. You can't trap a Jedi unless you have his mission, and if you have his mission you can't be healed. Unless this has changed very recently, it makes organized PvP on a factional bounty hunter not ideal.

I run into few bounty hunters that are dedicated to one faction or the other. Most I run in to are Neutral.

[Celt]

combat medics are countered by Jedi, doctors have very little role in pvp if there are jedi, especially master healers.

As far as the bounty hunter jedi mix for PvP. You can't trap a Jedi unless you have his mission, and if you have his mission you can't be healed. Unless this has changed very recently, it makes organized PvP on a factional bounty hunter not ideal.

I run into few bounty hunters that are dedicated to one faction or the other. Most I run in to are Neutral.

1) You only need doc 3xxx essentially to counter CMs. This allows for plenty of stacking.
2) I agree, traps should work in pvp and duels as well. I also think BHs should be allowed the same healing benefits a Jedi has.

[VyperWoo]

1) You only need doc 3xxx essentially to counter CMs. This allows for plenty of stacking.

1) This is not the case. Have you tried this? So, you are going to counter someone's venom or bile enhanced poison C with a cure poison A?

[Celt]

It's not an I win button. Its a counter. You dont need Master Doc to survive an attack from a CM which is what you are insinuating.

[VyperWoo]

It's not an effective counter. I know on paper it may look that way, but in actual pvp it doesn't quite work like that.

The counter is force healing xxx3, thats my point. Which every single jedi I have ever seen has.

Even if your theory of novice doctor held up, that's still 95 points. There is a reason you don't see many novice doctors running around PvP.

This isn't anything personal, I just don't agree with your PvP flow chart. You make really good points about bounty hunter and jedi balance. I would also like to see bounty hunters using traps not just when they are hunting the Jedi.

BH's counter Jedi if they are hunting them which isn't ideal for PvP.
Most pvp classes counter BH including CM, which is why you don't see many factional bh's in pvp
Jedi counter CM and all other pvp classes

[Celt]

Even if your theory of novice doctor held up

3xxx was the stated minimum:)

As for not being an effective counter in pvp, I disagree. We are pretty effective at removing key jedi from a fight. We are not utilized in that way very often, unfortunately. A few credits in a pinch and you could remove a jedi or two from the battle. Even if they wont come out and fight us, hiding in their cantina while every one else fights is equivalent.

We are simply a /tip and a /tell away. Rebels need not inquire.

[RemusStorm]

Even if your theory of novice doctor held up

3xxx was the stated minimum:)

As for not being an effective counter in pvp, I disagree. We are pretty effective at removing key jedi from a fight. We are not utilized in that way very often, unfortunately. A few credits in a pinch and you could remove a jedi or two from the battle. Even if they wont come out and fight us, hiding in their cantina while every one else fights is equivalent.

We are simply a /tip and a /tell away. Rebels need not inquire.

To be honest, 3030 is the minimum doc you need (i run 4030) otherwise its just not effective against MCMs.

Vyper Wrote:

As far as the bounty hunter jedi mix for PvP. You can't trap a Jedi unless you have his mission, and if you have his mission you can't be healed. Unless this has changed very recently, it makes organized PvP on a factional bounty hunter not ideal.

This is one of the big problems.

[Sevvy]

1) You only need doc 3xxx essentially to counter CMs. This allows for plenty of stacking.

[Ashfuehrer]

1) You only need doc 3xxx essentially to counter CMs. This allows for plenty of stacking.

LMAO right!!!!

[QuorTek]

Let buffs persist through death (you still get wounds and BF to attend to), also Entertainer buffs should be on level with the doc buffs powerwise or sever increased... remove the entertainer district feature from cities... let all doc/ent buffs be hardcapped at 3.5hours.

Remove Decay from PvP/PvP deaths, if overt increased penalty vs standard PvE mobs that is not Imp/Reb

[KushSan]

Let buffs persist through death (you still get wounds and BF to attend to), also Entertainer buffs should be on level with the doc buffs powerwise or sever increased... remove the entertainer district feature from cities... let all doc/ent buffs be hardcapped at 3.5hours.

Remove Decay from PvP/PvP deaths, if overt increased penalty vs standard PvE mobs that is not Imp/Reb

holy shit no!

decay is needed in swg