Professions that seem to need tweaking

[SiFu]

I would first like to say that I love Awakening and the way the staff here has changed the game and largely made it better. I feel that they have given us something a lot closer to the promise of CU that SOE made and failed to deliver on when they introduced something that was a new crummy game instead of a "Combat Upgrade". Keep up the stellar work. Most of your community appreciates it and some of us absolutely love it. I am in no way knocking what you guys are doing or have done and am merely offering some suggestions and opening a venue for other players to make suggestions. Please don't take any of this as criticism, it's not.

Every early live players remembers CH as being a huge part of the PreCU battle field landscape. We remember it fondly. CH is so weak right now that there is not a single person on the server that could imagine anything about it that should be nerfed. Many of us would like to see it back in it's glory. It's a great, iconic PreCU distinctly SWG unique profession that no one can use if they want to be good at anything. This ties into Bio Engineer as well.

Bio Engineer. Take the shackles off them and let them make the pre nerf battle pets that actually had an impact on the battle field. This would add a level of hard mode in and of it's self.

SL needs to be fixed as well. It was nerfed a while back because it was being used all wrong and I believe those nerfs fixed that problem but did not fix the problems that made it un playable as a profession. A "Squad Leader" by definition is the last profession in the galaxy that should be botted and stuck in a star port some where so stopping that was a 100% good call. However I still don't think that it's a playable choice in most situations. I would like to see it with a slight boost in power, range, and a skill point cost reduction by at least half so that the people leading the squads on Awakening can fit it into their build and use it effectively and still survive the first wave of combat.

Smuggler. Simply fix feign death and this profession is good to go. It is and always was one of the most fun professions due to it's all around versatility. Every one needs a smuggler.

Rifleman. rifle aiming, camo kits, conceal shot, a ranged DB are there for riflemen but they are not used as intended because the sniper tactic does not work. There has to be a way to get them back to early SWG where they could lay prone somewhere with a T21 and deliver devastating hits to players, NPC's, and creatures with out being discovered for at least a short time.

General ranged professions. They could all use a little love to try and get them closer to on par with melee professions. It's not quite a blaster free starwars game as it stands but it's not far off.

Bounty hunter. people are investigating trap misuse already so i'm not hitting on that but LLC's in conjunction with fastblast seem a little to strong. That's why you don't see scatter pistols or other specials like eye shot being used at all. We were doing some PvE the other day and focusing on the mind pool and I recommended eye shot to a MBH that was with us and he said "Oh I forgot I had that".

Force defender. They should have an immortality button (avoid incap) at master but it should not be a immortality forever spamable button. Maybe increase the force cost or make it where it can not be used more than once. Could always give it the same cool down timer as Equilibrium.

Pikeman and Carboneer need a little love as well but I am mentioning them last because that's how they have always been with the exception of super looted pikes.

I hope this sparks a good conversation and I hope every one keeps it respectful and suggestive. I want to thank the dev's for making this better than PreCU live SWG was already.

SiFu StarAdder Leader of FEAR

[Abraxas]

Moved to correct forum. Discuss away.

[QuorTek]

Actually a lot of this actually question in what the EMU guys ( not awakening ) really has been working on.

I too would like to see those professions enhanced and also make it more Star Wars with much more pew pew... it is not very iconic that a game like this is dominated by melee professions.

Especially would like something done for CH and BE on the pet side, not just a little tweak but a gigantic one, skills such as pet taunt, being able to summon a pet when the battle is on, remove the 15 second wait time for summoning a pet once outside city/camp limits, it is not like a pistoleer or whichever spend 15 seconds switching guns, believe there is more to CH on the CH forum.

Rifleman - make the Tusken Rifle kinetic, giving people more interest in hunting gorax for the gorax shards, maybe increase the rifle from light AP to medium.

WS - Let us chose the design and simply not just assign random scope, stock, barrel, let us assign them the same way as tailor select colors for their clothe.

Also for stuff like krayt dragons various NS targets 100k HP and above, geo cave, and more... maybe make it so you need a master doc or CM to be there to be able to keep up with the heals of the tanks and other professions needed, meaning the sword or whichever would do reduced damage as ranged would do more, it is kind of an oddity that you can heal through most of it with a few novice boxes in medic anyhow if so something down these lines is done, a possible loot increase would be needed as it would require at least a group of 3-4 people.

[Xiphos]

Sorry in advance for the wall of text.

Take the following with a grain of salt, as these are personal opinions and I am not attempting to speak for the entire staff or make any kind of official declaration. Decisions on these kinds of things are discussed internally prior to being worked on/implemented. But we certainly appreciate community input; you are the folks that play here. As long as ideas are within our vision of the future of Awakening, they will be discussed. Some items are too time consuming or otherwise conflict with mechanics, which is just the reality of an Emu project.

Threads like these, overall, are a good thing as they get folks discussing and brainstorming. However, as they develop they are more helpful (to staff) if broken into class-specific suggestion threads, preferably with the first post being a summary of the most important/realistic ideas as organized by someone or a set of folks who play that class as a primary profession. (Otherwise, lots of good suggestions can get lost in the wash. I'd much rather be using free time to be coding or scripting an idea than reading through twelve pages of suggestions that can get all over the place.) In line with that train of thought, specific requests are much more useful than general requests.

With all that said:

Please don't take any of this as criticism, it's not.

To the contrary, constructive criticism is immeasurably useful. It's only when it gets to sour grapes that it starts to get less attention from me.

CH/BE: Agree. I'd been discussing with a few server CHs prior to taking on a rather large upcoming patch. I intend to resume those talks after said patch is implemented. There is a thread in CH sub-forum (I don't believe it ever made it to the suggestions forum) in which some specific ideas were tossed around. With BE, my only caveat is that I would like to keep rare, high-end tamed pets as the upper echelon.

SL: We will take a look. However, I do believe a SL when used well (i.e. not just running macros) is a force! I've played with some very good SLs here on Awakening, but the moments when they can really shine in my opinion (i.e. PvP) don't happen terribly often...although that seems to be getting better.

Smuggler: Feign Death *should* be included in next patch.

Rifleman: We're aware and in preliminary investigation. Because Rifles is such a powerful profession comparatively, this falls down the priority list a bit.

General ranged professions: Need some specifics, whether scenarios or recommended changes.

BH: I'd wager that Eye shot and the scatter pistol are among most commonly used in PvE BHing. Barring something unforeseen, the next major changes coming to LLC mechanics will probably be with the Village patch, whenever that gets worked into our unlock system.

Jedi (defender tree): Noted, we've discussed some changes to MDefender internally as well.

Pikes/Carbines: I'd like to give folks more reason to play these classes as well. Again, throw us some specifics.

[QuorTek]

CH/BE: Agree. I'd been discussing with a few server CHs prior to taking on a rather large upcoming patch. I intend to resume those talks after said patch is implemented. There is a thread in CH sub-forum (I don't believe it ever made it to the suggestions forum) in which some specific ideas were tossed around. With BE, my only caveat is that I would like to keep rare, high-end tamed pets as the upper echelon.

That is the point with BE to go an get more difficult DNA, likewise with other crafting professions that runs the server... such as risking their lives trespassing around Mutant Rancors with mask scent and the likes... it would be like saying the best T21's can only be looted... or best armor has to be looted in its full form no crafting intended, and I apologize but it is a very NGE like approach if the absolute best pets only can be tamed in the wild and not be 'master crafted'.

[SiFu]

CH/BE: Agree. I'd been discussing with a few server CHs prior to taking on a rather large upcoming patch. I intend to resume those talks after said patch is implemented. There is a thread in CH sub-forum (I don't believe it ever made it to the suggestions forum) in which some specific ideas were tossed around. With BE, my only caveat is that I would like to keep rare, high-end tamed pets as the upper echelon.

That is the point with BE to go an get more difficult DNA, likewise with other crafting professions that runs the server... such as risking their lives trespassing around Mutant Rancors with mask scent and the likes... it would be like saying the best T21's can only be looted... or best armor has to be looted in its full form no crafting intended, and I apologize but it is a very NGE like approach if the absolute best pets only can be tamed in the wild and not be 'master crafted'.

I totally agree with Quar on this one. SWG boasted a player driven economy where player made everything was better than it's looted, farmed, or gathered equivalent. BE pets were better in live and should be here as well. BE had the hard work of locating those rare pets and collecting dna from the most brutal creatures in the galaxy to make the recipe for those super PvP pets. They had many trips to the cloner along the way as a result but there hard work was not for nothing because the pets that they put out were absolutely better than ones that could be tamed in the wild. Just like every other crafter profession the only thing that makes them playable at all is the fact that if they put in the work they can put out a server best product. The game it's self makes a point of driving this home specifically when it comes to the BE profession. There is a Bio Lab POI on Talus right now that has variants of talus creatures in it that have been bio engineered to be stronger than any variant of the same creature in the wild. That is what makes this game better than WOW. In WOW the best hunter pets are those super rare ones that you have to go out and find. Wrong game my friend. The first dev's of this game decided to be more like WOW by making rare loots more valuable than player made things as well (Cloak of hate for example), they called it NGE and let me tell you it went over super well with the community.

[SiFu]

BH: I'd wager that Eye shot and the scatter pistol are among most commonly used in PvE BHing. Barring something unforeseen, the next major changes coming to LLC mechanics will probably be with the Village patch, whenever that gets worked into our unlock system.

To little to late. When the village comes out all Jedi will suffer a huge nerf as they will have to invest 24 skill points in Force Sensitive skills so naturally the BH profession will be nerfed as well to reflect that. As it stands right now however 3 BH's can fire 1 fast blast at the same time with an LLC and 1 shot a fully buffed Finished template Master Lightsaber/ Master Enhancer before he even knows they are there, right through Force Armor 2. And they are doing it. That's broken right now. A Jedi should never be a paper target and should always be able to put up a fight. Consider this. if they throw 1 trap to initiate the fight before they fast blast 3 BH's have the fire power to kill the same Jedi mentioned above 3 times over before he has a chance to react in any way. 1 BH has enough fire power to take that Jedi out in the first trap before he can react. I have spoken to both BH's and Jedi and every one thinks it is hitting to hard. Jedi forced into hiding by the BH community is awesome and if the BH has to have an edge to make that happen then by all means give him an edge. Don't give him a freebie though. Make it a fight. The BH community on this server is absolutely focused on the contract and on the credits for the kill because they have to be. The fun of the hunt and the fight have been removed except for those M Defenders who have built their entire template around BH survivability. A very well known BH that I Spoke with told me that all most all of the Jedi he kills are dead before they even know a he is on them. The problem is that every Jedi is not cookie cutter and they should not be forced to be.

[Peleliu]

I have more than a little interest in the CH comments. Some in-game may even know me...Vaarus here. Sure there are things that can improve the CH experience, but it really isn't as bad as most people make it out to be. It takes a lot of dedication to be a good CH and it has proven to be one of the most rewarding experiences I have ever had in any gaming I have ever done. I only hope that the changes in the works don't swing things too far out of balance. I prefer small incremental changes over big swings. I also wish a list of proposed changes could be posted. If anyone would like my input regarding specific points, feel free to contact me (especially devs).

Some things I would like to see (1, 2 & 3 should be fairly easy to implement):
1. Heavily boosted pet storage capacity...Absolutely the most important to me considering the 100s of tamable creatures out there.
2. Make many currently untamable critters tamable. I don't mean all the big combat type pets, but there are so many cool relatively minor critters out there I want.
3. Make sure all creatures currently listed in SWG Creatures actually have a chance to spawn somewhere at sometime.
4. Ranged pet stims.
5. Different damage types for some pets...who wouldn't like an acid spitting durni?
6. Pet armor...a long-term pipe dream, but it would look so cool.

Things I don't care about at this time:
1. Boosting CL of creatures you can control.
2. Controlling more than 3 pets.
3. Boosting HAM & resists (leave that to possible armor)
4. Increasing rare spawn chances.

Vaarus MCH (and Moe my trusty Cu Pa)

[QuorTek]

Been a MCH since the server was new... and the experience was better back then mostly because MBE could make rather good and well built pets.. but due to an EMU change and Awakening not proper testing the impact then some of my pets that I have now cannot be summoned... so the conditions went from bad to worse.. they are both CL65 BE made, I wont be happy again unless there is some serious changes to MCH + BE related issues... also before those changes... quick pets could keep up almost with ones swoop... and also they would not flicker once following to a position either.

I dare to say that pet should be as strong as a stacker player toon or (insert melee/ranged profession here) as one give up a lot of professions points being a CH, I am very dedicated to MCH and have always been so, but currently having lesser fun playing the CH part of my build but keeping it as I have faith in that they would fix it for good.

[Ceras]

Pistoleer: Disarming Shot 1 & 2

[SiFu]

Pistoleer: Disarming Shot 1 & 2

Good one and absolutely the kind of input I was hoping to get here.

[QuorTek]

All combat professions to have shared pools to hit could be a nice treat as well, some of it is rather odd and at times make grouping up more difficult with cross professions, also could be a good way to get a better blend of professions once doing group content or just out group/guild hunting.

[lassic]

All combat professions to have shared pools to hit could be a nice treat as well, some of it is rather odd and at times make grouping up more difficult with cross professions, also could be a good way to get a better blend of professions once doing group content or just out group/guild hunting.

Frankly, as challenging as it is, I like being forced to build an appropriate combat team. Not everyone should be able to single target a pool that is in common. This is one of the cornerstones of all the combat professions. The first time I was eyeshotted to death by a BH, I was like, wtf?! How did you hit my mind pool with a pistol. I had no idea BH could do that.

Anyway, as convenient as it would be, I don't agree that this should change.

[laughingowl]

CH/BE: Agree. I'd been discussing with a few server CHs prior to taking on a rather large upcoming patch. I intend to resume those talks after said patch is implemented. There is a thread in CH sub-forum (I don't believe it ever made it to the suggestions forum) in which some specific ideas were tossed around. With BE, my only caveat is that I would like to keep rare, high-end tamed pets as the upper echelon.

That is the point with BE to go an get more difficult DNA, likewise with other crafting professions that runs the server... such as risking their lives trespassing around Mutant Rancors with mask scent and the likes... it would be like saying the best T21's can only be looted... or best armor has to be looted in its full form no crafting intended, and I apologize but it is a very NGE like approach if the absolute best pets only can be tamed in the wild and not be 'master crafted'.

I totally agree with Quar on this one. SWG boasted a player driven economy where player made everything was better than it's looted, farmed, or gathered equivalent. BE pets were better in live and should be here as well. BE had the hard work of locating those rare pets and collecting dna from the most brutal creatures in the galaxy to make the recipe for those super PvP pets. They had many trips to the cloner along the way as a result but there hard work was not for nothing because the pets that they put out were absolutely better than ones that could be tamed in the wild. Just like every other crafter profession the only thing that makes them playable at all is the fact that if they put in the work they can put out a server best product. The game it's self makes a point of driving this home specifically when it comes to the BE profession. There is a Bio Lab POI on Talus right now that has variants of talus creatures in it that have been bio engineered to be stronger than any variant of the same creature in the wild. That is what makes this game better than WOW. In WOW the best hunter pets are those super rare ones that you have to go out and find. Wrong game my friend. The first dev's of this game decided to be more like WOW by making rare loots more valuable than player made things as well (Cloak of hate for example), they called it NGE and let me tell you it went over super well with the community.

While new to awakening (just started today), I would have to agree with the sentiment on why I came back once I could find disks.

While a MCH was my main in the official game and I personally used mostly personally tamed pets, I did feel that BE pets should (if 'maxxed') have better stats then a corresponding 'tamed' pet. Personally a 'normal' creature tames, should be IMO ~ the 'average' quality BE pet. You trade your time (to tame) versus player economy. A 'rare' tamed pet should be somewhere above average, but the 'best' (stat wise) pet should be a BE pet with the best DNA.

Now if totally 'new' mechanics are to be made, the BEST pet, should be a super-rare tamed pet, that is then Injected with tailored Serums from BE

[Celt]

Smuggler. Simply fix feign death and this profession is good to go. It is and always was one of the most fun professions due to it's all around versatility. Every one needs a smuggler.

Agreed.

Rifleman. rifle aiming, camo kits, conceal shot, a ranged DB are there for riflemen but they are not used as intended because the sniper tactic does not work. There has to be a way to get them back to early SWG where they could lay prone somewhere with a T21 and deliver devastating hits to players, NPC's, and creatures with out being discovered for at least a short time.

I have consistently supported this as well. In my opinion, take cover should remove you from the radar and not be targetable with tab. You should have to click the toon to target.

Bounty hunter. people are investigating trap misuse already so i'm not hitting on that but LLC's in conjunction with fastblast seem a little to strong. That's why you don't see scatter pistols or other specials like eye shot being used at all. We were doing some PvE the other day and focusing on the mind pool and I recommended eye shot to a MBH that was with us and he said "Oh I forgot I had that".

Mentioning the alleged traps issue is hitting on it by default. It's equivalent to "I am not sayin', but I am just sayin'". The traps "misuse" is a client side desync or lag issue. We tested this extensively when traps were patched the last time, and we tested after the recent complaints started surfacing. When a mechanic is not repeatable you have to start looking to other causes. As for LLCs being too beastly with FB, I again call bull-puckey. If it was OP it wouldnt take 3 guys with LLCs to drop Knights who can hold their own, not to mention MDef.

Force defender. They should have an immortality button (avoid incap) at master but it should not be a immortality forever spamable button. Maybe increase the force cost or make it where it can not be used more than once. Could always give it the same cool down timer as Equilibrium.

If you spam AI you can keep it up for 3 1/2 minutes. 7 if you use a holocron. I am all for raising the force cost to 2k or so from it's current FC of 500 (or is it 700?). That coupled with normal MDef defenses and some heals and it takes 5 or 6 hunters 10+ minutes to kill a single MLS/MDef.

[tnick]

Mentioning the alleged traps issue is hitting on it by default. It's equivalent to "I am not sayin', but I am just sayin'". The traps "misuse" is a client side desync or lag issue. We tested this extensively when traps were patched the last time, and we tested after the recent complaints started surfacing. When a mechanic is not repeatable you have to start looking to other causes. As for LLCs being too beastly with FB, I again call bull-puckey. If it was OP it wouldnt take 3 guys with LLCs to drop Knights who can hold their own, not to mention MDef.

LLC's can be pretty nasty when used with FB, and if you disagree you aren't paying attention, or there is something wrong with your LLC. The common misconception with LLCs is speed. Some people still think the speed cap is the wrong value when it comes to using Fast Blast and they end up being too slow. I'm not going to say what it is, of course, do your own testing and break out the math book, but a lot of your LLC's are too slow. A powerful 1200+ dmg LLC with the correct speed is pretty damn tough to beat and given the shear number of Krayt tissues this server sees it isn't overly difficult to get some to get an LLC that high. 1v1 BH vs Jedi is still a tough obstacle for the BH (and it should be, this isn't rock, paper, scissors) but if you are 2v1 against a Jedi (minus MDef) and you fail, then you are doing smething wrong. I'm not talking about failing to kill him because he ran away. That's a different story. If he stands his ground and kills you then you done messed up.

This of course doesn't mean that you are bad. We are only human and sometimes make mistakes, but if this is the consistent outcome you see, then maybe you need to reevaluate what is happening.

[Xiphos]

I hesitate to even post this for fear of pulling the conversation too far into BH/Jedi which has been hashed many, many times. But humor me. ^-^

One issue I have with this argument is that speed is a defense. It allows escape or can be used tactically at the discretion of the jedi. With that, you can't simply write it off as though it isn't an option. To say that only a master defender can stand toe-to-toe with two or more BH makes sense, as that is the heart of that build. Currently, we are looking for a 2-2.5 BH:1 Jedi ratio, but that doesn't necessarily mean standing still. Admittedly it's an impossible ratio to pin down, because it's an attempt to find one or two variables in a sea of different builds and different abilities.

That's not to say we don't desire some change. Personally I'd like to tweak a few mechanics to narrow the gap between the best jedi builds vs. BH and those that are suited elsewhere, but it still remains that some builds are more suited for other aspects of the game. I'd also like to tweak a few things to make non-LLC builds more appealing.

That said, as this post originally outlined, there are also other items in need of love and the BH/Jedi mini-game was a focus of the last patch.

[Royan]

I hesitate to even post this for fear of pulling the conversation too far into BH/Jedi which has been hashed many, many times. But humor me. ^-^

One issue I have with this argument is that speed is a defense. It allows escape or can be used tactically at the discretion of the jedi. With that, you can't simply write it off as though it isn't an option. To say that only a master defender can stand toe-to-toe with two or more BH makes sense, as that is the heart of that build. Currently, we are looking for a 2-2.5 BH:1 Jedi ratio, but that doesn't necessarily mean standing still. Admittedly it's an impossible ratio to pin down, because it's an attempt to find one or two variables in a sea of different builds and different abilities.

That's not to say we don't desire some change. Personally I'd like to tweak a few mechanics to narrow the gap between the best jedi builds vs. BH and those that are suited elsewhere, but it still remains that some builds are more suited for other aspects of the game. I'd also like to tweak a few things to make non-LLC builds more appealing.

That said, as this post originally outlined, there are also other items in need of love and the BH/Jedi mini-game was a focus of the last patch.

The issue with speed is that builds with FR2/FR3 can and do get killed within a trap duration vs 2 BH

[Xiphos]

While I agree this can happen (bad RNG rolls for saber block), our trap time decrease on the last patch was specifically to address this issue. Testing revealed the decreased time to vastly decrease the one-trap kill phenomenon. However, testing cannot capture the true nature of surprise, which is a key component of the dynamic.

I'll make a point of stalking some BHs over the next few days and make notes on their jedi missions.

[Celt]

LLC's can be pretty nasty when used with FB, and if you disagree you aren't paying attention, or there is something wrong with your LLC. The common misconception with LLCs is speed. Some people still think the speed cap is the wrong value when it comes to using Fast Blast and they end up being too slow. I'm not going to say what it is, of course, do your own testing and break out the math book, but a lot of your LLC's are too slow. A powerful 1200+ dmg LLC with the correct speed is pretty damn tough to beat and given the shear number of Krayt tissues this server sees it isn't overly difficult to get some to get an LLC that high. 1v1 BH vs Jedi is still a tough obstacle for the BH (and it should be, this isn't rock, paper, scissors) but if you are 2v1 against a Jedi (minus MDef) and you fail, then you are doing smething wrong. I'm not talking about failing to kill him because he ran away. That's a different story. If he stands his ground and kills you then you done messed up.

This of course doesn't mean that you are bad. We are only human and sometimes make mistakes, but if this is the consistent outcome you see, then maybe you need to reevaluate what is happening.

I don't disagree they hit like a truck. I disagree with the assertion they are OP and need to be nerfed. I think many people have the misconception they are OP because they see their friends go down like noodles when 2 or 3 of us show up. It's a mentality issue, not a game issue. Instead of looking internally and wondering if you can improve, the assumption is the other guy either cheated or is OP. Not only is that pretty darn arrogant, it leads to your skill stagnating. The dead player assumes they are fine, the problem is the other guy or the server. Of course since you never improve and you keep dying to a couple guys with LLCs, this just furthers the assumption LLCs are broken, or traps are being exploited.

I just get tired of seeing whatever strategy we come up with labled OP and then we listen to weeks and weeks of sub par pvpers complaining we should be dumbed down. It happened with Rockets, then Fire, then traps and now it's LLCs. Once they nerf LLCs and we find yet another work around I am sure that will be called OP as well.